Conscious Leadership & Cultural Transformation. Jaclyn Orent Interview

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (00:01.56)
Hello, welcome everybody to another episode of Arthur's Round Table. Super grateful as always that everybody's paying attention at some level or another and that you're sharing things. And so we're happy that you're doing that. And thank you. I really appreciate it. We have a guest today, Jacqueline Oren. And Jacqueline and I don't know each other, but I'm glad that she's here because she has information as it relates to in a practice and business that relates to

both sides of what is largely our audience, entrepreneurs, fund managers, and investors. And so we're really happy to have her here today. Jathlyn, thanks for doing this. So let's start with the beginning, if that's OK with you. How did this all come about?

Jaclyn Orent (00:33.104)
.

Jaclyn Orent (00:38.224)
.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Yes, well, I mean, I have a really long story, so I think it's important to just give an overlying context to what we're working on. And my name is Jacqueline Orant. I'm the co-founder, systems architect, and CEO of an organization called Cultural Catalysts. And what we're literally doing is creating the missing infrastructure for leaders who have a desire to create a culture that is outside of their organization, although they might use their organization.

to actually affect culture at large. And so right now we're at a really interesting tipping point between what's been and what will be. And a lot of this work is dependent on the time we're in history. And I like to call on Ray Dalio as a really specific example. And I know there lot of your audience is investors. And so one of the things that Ray Dalio talks about is that we are in stage five, or I think we just switched to stage six of the debt cycle.

which basically means that we're gonna be shifting from the United States being a world power and a shift of world powers that actually hasn't happened since after World War II. And so there's all these existing infrastructure, whether it be in the government or in the way that things are done inside of businesses, or even our communities that are literally since the 60s, or even sometimes the 50s, that haven't been updated. And we noticed that things are getting more inefficient, things are people are fighting with each other.

Jaclyn Orent (02:10.796)
You know, money's being deflated and there's just more civil distrust, like, distrest than there's ever been. And so before I go into my story, I really want to make sure that people paint and understand why we're having this conversation right now, because it's really easy to get caught in my journey to getting here without understanding that what we're doing is actually a manifestation of what I've been through and the work that I've done and ultimately a conglomeration of three different pieces of research.

that is actually creating the environment and the system, the actual infrastructure for us to create this new vision of the culture that we want to create and actually go do it.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (02:49.326)
Sure, I think that's helpful. Do you think, before you go on to your journey, there are probably a lot of people who are familiar with Dalio's principles, studied them, I'd have, they're often referenced. Do you think that in the culture he created, was order of magnitude different than

what other businesses created from the beginning is discultures, transparency, the recording of all the conversations and that sort of thing. Was it somewhat an example of what you think could be possible with other companies?

Jaclyn Orent (03:33.551)
100%. And I just want to riff on that real quick, because what you're talking about is the unique business model and the way that his organization operated, which was not hierarchical. It was based off of principles of believability and even what he called baseball cards so that people could find out what their skills, what their weaknesses are to make sure that the right people get put in the right circumstances. And right now our current system structures, whether it be on a government level or even an organizational level, it's set up as in a hierarchy.

And one of the things that Ray did differently was he created an environment of transparency. And transparency is one of the new principles of where we need to go so that we can actually collaborate. Because what happens when we're not actually transparent about what's happening is that things get pushed under the table. Things don't get acknowledged. And I'm sure you have this happen in your personal relationships, the teams you've worked in, that people hide stuff.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (04:23.166)
All the time.

Jaclyn Orent (04:26.349)
And then that stuff actually prevents the thing from being worked through. And so part of what we actually need to do to not just create new organizational culture and achieve our business outcomes and scale our businesses and get a return on ROI is making sure that the communication actually moves throughout the network. And the best example of a network is literally an Aspen Grove. An Aspen Grove is a set of trees that are communicating with each other underground. So they look like they're separate.

but actually they're communicating. And so we are really no different than an aspen grove. I don't care if you're an aspen tree that's been there for 80 years or 20 years, they're all communicating with each other and they're telling each other when they need more nutrients. They're telling each other when there's danger, they're telling each other and resource sharing with each other. And if we're not actually practicing transparency in terms of leadership, how are we gonna resource share? How are we gonna solve problems?

How are we going to collaborate? And so what Ray did there wasn't itself revolutionary in creating an environment of transparency, which for some people is really uncomfortable because it makes you look at the things you don't want to look at. And that is actually where insights and information happens so that you can strategically shift no different than Musk, right? He's dealing with rockets. So if reality shows to him that his rocket blows up, he can deny it, right?

He can pretend that it didn't happen and that in itself is not looking at reality and addressing as is with what's happening.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (05:57.678)
Yeah, and Musk's a good example because despite what anybody might think of him, his premise, his first principles are seeking truth, right? So, like I said, it doesn't matter. I happen to be a fan because I know a lot about it, but it is the reason. It's just like Jensen Wang. It's about reasoning, right? And so I think that some of the

corporations have evolved to in a way largely as a result of the leaders, but maybe not. In the old days, let's just call it that. You had a company and there was a hierarchy and there were middle management and upper management. And the people who were actually doing the work didn't get a chance to tell the people that were really at the decision-making tree.

what was really happening on ground. so it was a, what was the old game, phone where you went around and circle by time it got around the other thing, it didn't even resemble what the original intent was. aside from where Galio says, we are, from economic standpoint, are there cultural things, I mean, the name of your company that are changing in mass?

that would help catalyze this sort of behavior.

Jaclyn Orent (07:25.39)
Well, so one of the things that we actually learn about is how change happens. And so in the last year, I took the outcomes from my personal coaching practice and applied to the most innovative university in the country called, I mean, in the world, excuse me, called Minerva University to get a master's in decision making and applied analytics. And I applied with the thesis of connecting consciousness, which is the underlying field that affects everything.

with the root cause of systemic change based off real time quantitative and qualitative outcomes in my practice. And I got into grad school within like days and then I got to reach out to potential research partners and I got to be introduced to two very important people in their field. One, Richard Iboiazas who spent the last 60 years studying change. He's a Harvard University graduate and a Case Western University researcher who's been studying change of how does change actually happen from the individual to the organization to the community all the way up to the

the country and the global processes. Okay. He's created literally 60 years of research on this and he read my thesis and he actually agreed with my thesis and then pointed me back to his work. He actually said he wouldn't talk to me until I read it. And then I got to meet Dr. Benjamin Hardy within days of that, whom of which has written who not how 10 X is easier than two X be your future self now and the gain in the gap with the famous entrepreneurial ship, entrepreneurial coach Dan Sullivan. And so

Hardy read my thesis as well and basically told me not to read any of his other work besides the science of scaling. And in my journey, I've also had to learn how to listen to reality. And sometimes listen, reality will tell you exactly what you need if you're listening to it. And reality was telling me that the research already existed actually, that I didn't need to go to grad school to study it. I just needed to apply the research had it already existed. And so when we actually look at what the research shows us, is there's something called a fractal, okay? The fractal is as follows. It goes from the individual,

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (09:07.406)
Yes.

Jaclyn Orent (09:19.041)
to the dyad, which is a partnership of some sorts, to the team, to the organization, to the community, to the country, all the way up to the global processes. And most of the change efforts stop at the organizational level. There's a tremendous amount of research on how organizational change happens. And there's also a tremendous amount of research about how most organizational change efforts aren't actually sustainable. So one of the pillars of Voyatzas' work is how does change actually happen and how does it actually

become sustained and how does it actually create the desired result? And one of the things that we have to learn is that right now there's no communication happening between the organizational level and the greater community level. Primarily it's happening through separate nonprofits or boards of advisory at a community level like a local government or at a country level and sometimes you'll see like NATO bring together countries and specific things like that.

But we're running into the issue where there's organizational leaders right now who know things like Dalio, for example, like leading with transparency produces exponential results, right? He has that specific principle in his book. That is not how most of the organizations are operating, right? But one of the reasons why Dalio wrote that book was because he knew that wisdom from his learned experience would be helpful for other people.

But that isn't a social norm. It's actually opposite of being a social norm. It's actually normal to be dishonest with ourselves and with others. And so that is a specific example of a new way of being, a new way of doing things, a new way of doing business that actually produces ridiculous results. He has he went from a middle class man and a middle class family to one of the wealthiest men on men on the planet by actually leading with transparency and learning to

view reality as truth and to learn how to systematically increase his upside, reducing his risk basically. And so when we look at leaders like that, the only challenge is there's other leaders like that, If you look at, we can look at Steve Jobs too. One of the things that Steve Jobs was known for was bending reality, okay? He had the ability to make the impossible possible through what many people call

Jaclyn Orent (11:36.374)
cognitive distortion, right? And that helped Apple innovate in ways that created a new technology that wasn't even there yet. And so one of the things that we get to learn as we actually build a new culture and new systems and structures and invest in projects and businesses that are actually, you know, more whole serving than just self-serving and more from a place of wholeness and integrity than just for oneself is taking

these new ways of doing things from people that innovated. And oftentimes innovation is the opposite of iteration. And most people are iterating. Most people are doing the same thing with different clothes on. You could even say it's like a wolf in sheep's clothing, okay? It's the same exact thing and it's dressed up slightly differently. And the thing is to do something new is radical. It's completely radical to be able to do something new. I remember when Apple...

had the iPods back in the 2000s, I was looking at my dad being like, this is the future. Like I need one of these things. And he was like, it's too expensive. Like, why would I spend $300 on this thing when I can get you one for 150? And I saw the underlying architecture of how it all worked together, how there was innovation happening and how the design of it worked specifically and how the closed system was actually being able to resource share between different products. And so sometimes innovation is radical and sometimes

our existing structures, which is exactly what Machiavelli said in 1515, that the existing structures are designed to protect themselves and the people who want to do anything new about it, well, you're likely going to have a lot of resistance. And so that's why in the next coming age, as we move out of the big debt cycle into the dissolution of what was into something new, we need to be able to sit in what Dalioukas calls open-mindedness, right? To be able to see that some of the new innovations that were happening, might judge, we might ridicule.

We might deny, we might not accept, but these are actually part of the solutions that can actually solve a lot of the problems that we have right now.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (13:33.742)
So how do you address and think about the percentage of the population that are not interested in, let's just say, learning, not interested in improving, and or don't have time because Johnny has to go to soccer and I have to get up and go to work in the morning and make sure I the bills? There's abstinence, not

Jaclyn Orent (13:57.479)
Yeah. Totally.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (14:03.752)
often by choice, but by necessity to look at these things and implement them, or at least look at them as an employee in a company that thinks because of your ideology that Amazon doesn't treat their employees well. It doesn't matter whether that's true or not. But because that serves you in some way, you attach yourself to that ideology, whether it's true or not. You don't spend the time

formulating a authentic opinion around that. You just take somebody else's words because it satisfies something that you're settled in being with. So I'm sorry, it's a long question and I didn't mean to it that way. But there's a whole big part of the population that just doesn't give a shit, right? And so is it up to you and others and leaders who are

Jaclyn Orent (14:46.441)
it

Jaclyn Orent (14:50.953)
Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (15:00.546)
have zeal and enthusiasm about making things better or bettering themselves. We have to count on them to make their businesses better, their communities better. How do we infiltrate all this?

Jaclyn Orent (15:16.551)
Well, one of the first things that we have to be aware is that when we're trying to fix or change something externally, that actually prevents acceptance from happening. And so one of the things that you often see in people who are in treatment, for example, for say, let's say addiction, that the family is trying to support them in changing, but the addict doesn't want to change. Right. And that makes the change like process completely not possible. And the reason why is because there's not willingness. OK.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (15:40.128)
It's impossible.

Jaclyn Orent (15:43.997)
And so there has to be willingness to change. And the thing is you cannot try to get someone to change. You cannot try to fix someone. You cannot try to fix an organization. One of the biggest errors in organizational change efforts is that the organizational change efforts are actually focused on what they're trying to fix and change versus what is the solution that they are trying to solve. And the difference is between a problems first approach and a goals first approach.

And what happens in the body with a problems first approach and a goals first approach is completely different. When you're in a problems first approach, you're focused on what's wrong. The neural network that's engaged literally is focused on solving problems. And what happens in the nervous system is you go into stress, okay? That depletes the body. Now when you're focused on where you want to go and a goal that ideally is emotionally compelling, it has to be something that drives you.

so that it creates the intrinsic motivation to change. So that's what I want to touch on here. What is the difference between intrinsic motivation and extrinsic motivation? Intrinsic motivation, it comes from within. It's based off who you want to be, whether it be personally or in a collective, in an organization where there's a collective vision. But if it's extrinsic, which means it comes from external, what does, what happens in the body is it halts change efforts. And most people, and the way that the brain works is it is primarily focused on solving problems.

And Einstein said that you literally can't solve the problems from the level of consciousness that created them. And we can't change consciousness, which is the underlying field that is affecting our thoughts, our behaviors, our actions, and our results, by trying to fix or change it. You actually change consciousness by accepting reality as it is, the associated feelings that are associated with it. Because do you think a like musk likes it when his rocket blows up? Absolutely not. Do you think he's angry about it when his rocket blows up?

Absolutely. Do you think he throws a fit when his rocket blows up? Most likely. And he needs to because that's making energy move through his system so he can actually accept reality and the consequences of his actions so that he can strategically move differently. So that's what I mean is that we can actually create and change through acceptance, radical acceptance, and not trying to fix or change.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (17:55.822)
funny because there's a lot of people that are just stuck, Including entrepreneurs that are wildly successful and they're right about everything and often wrong, but it doesn't matter. They just run through walls and tell everybody what to do. And jobs was like that in some level. But look what he built. What do you think about the, you know, I traffic in entrepreneurs and fund managers and highly driven people.

Jaclyn Orent (18:23.739)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (18:25.674)
as well as people who are monied and are deploying capital. so there is a consistent, there's a few things you can say consistently, but the ones that are most successful, there's two camps. There's ones that just run through walls and it doesn't matter if they're wrong about something. They just do it and then they fix it and they keep on going. Right. And then the others are

Jaclyn Orent (18:30.203)
Totally.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (18:51.35)
more methodical about it, right? So, I mean, there's all kinds of in between. But it often is that the most successful people, if you measure success by building enterprises and money and wealth and that sort of thing, there might be other metrics for success, is that they're very, very good listeners. And so, like I said, there are some that aren't, and they're still wildly successful.

Jaclyn Orent (19:00.327)
Thanks.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (19:18.978)
but usually not as successful as the listeners. So when you're talking about, you said something that resonates really well with me and perhaps the audience as well, is that you may not like the reality, but it is the reality. So start there and then move on, right? We have to live in this world or not, right? So live in the world and then move on from there to try to fix whatever it is. you said,

problems create the wrong energy, solving a problem creates wrong energy in the body so it's more like aspirational goals or something like that.

Jaclyn Orent (19:57.393)
Yep, yep, yep, yep. And that's actually the difference between the gain and the gap. So we can actually look at this from Hardy's research, because it's saying the exact same thing as Boyatz's. And so what this call, it's called, it's the real self. It's who you are, it's who your organization or your business is right now. The only problem with the real self is you can't actually see yourself. That's why there's Leadership 360 is because there's one of the challenges of the brain, that is it's inherent with its blind spots. And so one of the gifts of reality.

and open-mindedness, another principle of Dalio's, is that it helps you see your blind spots. Now, the thing is when we have the real self, the ideal self or the collective shared vision is the thing that pulls us. So ideally, what it is, it's an aspirational vision that is emotionally compelling. So this is what I wanna harp on right now because the interview with Tony Robbins and Hermosy was a perfect example of this many months ago was that Hermosy successfully set a goal from his mind and he pushed and grinded his way there and there.

He was and he was unhappy. And Tony was like, you look successful, but really, the biggest pitfall of success is that you actually get there and you don't find what you're looking for, which is fulfillment. And those are two separate things. The art of fulfillment and the science of success are two different things. And that's because it depends on where you are putting your goalpost. And so when we look at the scaling science that Hardy sets out, which is the difference between exponential growth and incremental growth.

Number one is when we set incremental goals, that's when we actually begin to die. Because we're not challenging ourselves to grow and become something new. That growth process is actually part of what gives us the sense of being alive. And then the second thing is that Hardy talks about we wanna make sure that we're committed to the correct goal. That the ladder that we're climbing actually gets us where we wanna go. So the question often is, are we willing to pay the price? That's a question that needs to be evaluated when we have a goal.

And the question of are you asking enough of yourself? And then something that often gets overlooked is will you enjoy the process? So you have to understand that enjoyment. What it does is it creates PEA, which stands for positive emotional attractor. It literally sustains your body and gives the ability to keep Well, it's often I often compare PEA like going to the gas station like you fill up your car to keep going. But like your vision and your goal needs to do the same thing. And so.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (22:00.79)
and you know when it happens.

Jaclyn Orent (22:11.802)
For me, I talk and one of the reasons when I see like Musk, for example, who's extremely resilient, whether you like him or not, he's been able to achieve many impossible things. And that's because he's been driven by the goal of going to the moon, which has some very emotionally compelling reason for him. So one of the challenges of being an entrepreneur, and I know myself because I am one, is that you have to have a vision that drives you through the inevitable challenges and hardships. And you have to make sure that where you're going is somewhere you actually want to end up.

And that it's not just the end result that it is that's going to let you off, but the process yourself. So when it comes to, you know, having a family business or making investments, one of the things that I think is very important, and I think one of the conversations that's going to start expanding is not just looking at the bottom line as the only metric that matters. It's like, how does this actually affect the family? How does this affect, you know, the Earth? How does this affect one's self-esteem and their feeling of contribution to humanity?

There are some metrics that are not currently on the balance sheet. And I know because my father is an accountant. That are some things that we're needing to start looking at. So we often see that right now with the advent of triple bottom line businesses that we're not just looking at the profit, but we're looking at the people and the planet as well. And this holistic goal setting actually allows for the fulfillment. So the fulfillment and the enjoyment and the actual experience of being alive.

and not just being in force, right? Because when we push goals, it's coming from a place of fear. It just is. It depletes the body and there's no meaning into it because at some point in some level you're trying to prove something to yourself. But when you serve something greater than yourself, you have the ability to overcome the inevitable challenges of doing something new.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (23:55.438)
You know, you may know this and the audience knows it on some level, but there's some really good work that's being done in family office, the community, as it relates to the things that you mentioned. And we have to recognize that if you have plenty of money for the family, then that leaves room for other stuff, problems and solutions, right? So if you're not

on the survival train, like you're not just trying to pay the mortgage and feed the kids. And it actually gives you liberty to look at other things and not all people do, but it was some really good work being done in particularly second or third generation families of wealth that they're doing family meetings, family governance, helping the next generation.

Don't just be a trust baby and go to Ibiza. There's more to life than that. Like you need to get that out of your system. Go ahead. But you know, it, we find that that is, you know, what, what is it? The, the bottom of the bottle bottle is always dry. You know what I mean? So, you know, it's just a metaphor, but the point is, is that there's some really good work being done in, in, this area, just simply because money creates solutions and big problems.

Jaclyn Orent (25:22.21)
Yes it does. Yeah. Well there's also some really interesting research about the efficacy of a transition from like say a father to a daughter in terms of taking over the family business and the efficacy of the success of that transition actually depends on the father and the daughter coming into a collective shared vision. And so in the past the way that the hierarchy works is that the hierarchy would say this is the vision this is what you have to do. However that doesn't create buy in.

It doesn't care or doesn't listen about the other person what they want and so part of what actually creates success at an organizational level as well as the transition and in terms of the efficacy of the investments is creating that collective shared vision which means up opening up that vision of what what does the family want to create actually I have this conversation with my parents and my sister and family therapy is like what is the legacy that you're wanting to leave mom and dad right like having that conversation with them now and

also creating an environment and having self-respect to make sure that the parents are actually listening to you and not just being the ones who are directing. And part of that is an actual growing up process that we actually intellectually are developed enough to be able to stand our own decisions, to be able to accept the consequences of it and also be able to stand our own morality in terms of what's right and wrong. And that's actually the difference between whether a successful secession happens or not.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (26:42.658)
Yeah, it's really even though it was largely entertainment, there were some real truths in succession show. I it was really I have endless amounts of anecdotal stories that are for public consumption that I can tell you about, but I won't. So, you know. Big rich families just have deeper problems, but they're largely the same.

Jaclyn Orent (27:11.406)
Well, we all have our problems. That's the thing. It's like it's two sides of the same coin. You have someone being like, I don't have enough money. And then you people with the money who are holding and hoarding it and not preventing the money from flowing to the next generation. And one of the things that I want to talk about, and I'm going to actually call on Bridgewater.

Famous investor, really old. Warren Buffett, what he's saying to do in this economy is actually to invest in your own education, right? And I know wealthy families, that's oftentimes what we do is invest in a child's education. And I think one of the limitations that has to be aware of, because I'm finding this in my own family dynamics, is oftentimes that the older generation doesn't understand the vision of the younger generation. So number one, there's a listening that needs to happen and a trust in the development of that.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (27:33.4)
Warren Buffett.

Jaclyn Orent (27:57.379)
that youth to be able to acquire the knowledge and the interest and the wisdom that they need to be able to create something that's authentically their own. using that capital to actually invest in the education of that individual is in itself an investment. And what he says to be a great investment when everything else is devaluing because the dollar is devaluing, what you can't outsource is the education and who you can become.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (28:21.486)
Yeah, it's really interesting. There's many, many years ago, I sat down and did my estate planning with a lawyer and I said to him, said, what a terrible job you have. And he goes, you're right. You know, I only can charge a thousand dollars an hour and I only can do so many trust. And the real value, equity value of my company sits in the vault waiting for people to die. Cause that's how I get paid. Cause what you just paid me is

you know, just keeps the lights on, right? And so I said, so what, you know, what would you have done alternatively? He said, well, my parents had money and I, looking back on it, if they had just said, listen, to get experience, have to experience. So there's no shortcut, right? So they had just said to me, here, go start a business. doesn't matter whether you fail, but that's how you're going to learn.

That was, in his view, the best education he would have ever. Now, of course, he went to college and law school and all that kind of stuff. So education was table stakes. But in his case, he said, I wish they told me they had the money or at least let me use part of it to go out and be an entrepreneur there. And then I wouldn't be stuck with this time and billing model, which is, you know, mean, corporate lawyers can make a lot of money because they get equity in companies, but stressing the state's lawyers, you know, it's finite, right?

Jaclyn Orent (29:38.195)
Okay.

Jaclyn Orent (29:47.377)
Yeah, you are absolutely correct. And that's been my experience as well is that my development in real life has been exponentially more valuable than my experience in school. And partially because school was only limited to a set curriculum. But when it comes to one's calling and what you are here to particular, there is not a path. And part of that path is finding that path. so accumulating what might seem like a random acquirement of skills and.

and learnings and things that might not make sense to the parent. It's something that is just part of the education process. And one of the things I actually talked to my mother about this past week is can you let life do the teaching?

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (30:26.584)
Yeah, yeah. Yes. I love sharing this because it worked. If you don't mind. So when I brought up my kids, somebody told me early on a little trick. And the trick was approach the magic of approach. And rather than telling your kids what you're immediately compelled to do, because it's kind of makes sense. Don't do that. Right? Don't do this. Don't don't do this. He said, it's all about your approach.

said, if you do that, it's likely to end up this way. So you have to decide whether you want it to end up that way or not. Right? So it's a completely different because when you say to them, you're not going to believe me, that's the first thing you say, then they're listening. You're right. I don't believe you. You know, I'm 17 years old and I know everything. Right. So now I'm listening. But if you do that, it's likely to end up like this.

Because as soon as you say don't do that, they just turn you out, right? It's just natural for kids to do that.

Jaclyn Orent (31:29.722)
true and sometimes parents can't see the ROI on the investment that they're making. So what they might view is a bad idea could be the best thing that could ever happen to the kid but since they think they know they don't realize that life is actually doing the teaching but if you're wise enough to get out of the way. And listen to life specifically you're able to lead more mind fleas which is what I'm hearing you reflect.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (31:37.56)
Big breath.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (31:50.543)
So what do you, by the way, I give a lot of credit to Dan Sullivan. I did strategic coach many years ago, really, really smart guy. I can point to dozens and dozens of people that I know that went through that program and continue to go through it. So accolades to Dan. How do you...

As a business, let's talk about your business. How do you work with companies, entrepreneurs? Who's your customer? What's it look like? What's the construct?

Jaclyn Orent (32:25.313)
Yeah, so first of all, I want to point out that I'm not a consultancy. I'm not a coach. I'm not even a coaching practice or anything along the lines right now. So what we're actually in the process of building is a peer network. So what I'm going to call on is what we are building with cultural catalyst is basically YPO meets CrossFit. So YPO is a peer network for high level leaders, $15 million in revenue minimum under the age of 45. You have to meet specific requirements in which you get to sit in on councils, basically.

that lead to specific outcomes that they've done over 50 years. Okay? And some of the research on what YPO does is it starts with problem solving and resource sharing, and then ultimately it leads to a level of belonging. And that's what cultural catalyst is. Cultural catalyst is that social identity group for people who are like, I'm a cultural catalyst, okay? And so we're actually creating the infrastructure for people to come into councils just like YPO did. And YPO has chapters all over the world. they have local chapters and an international chapter specifically.

And so what we're actually building is a repeatable council structure for certain levels of leaders to find that belonging, resource share, and ultimately move energy from the organizational level into the greater community. And the last thing is just like CrossFit specifically. CrossFit is a set way of doing things. Okay, you get to license what's called the box. It's called a box and there's a certain workout methodology that's specific to CrossFit that you get to license and use their name.

And then you get to be trained on whether or not you can lead those boxes. And so that's exactly what we're building with the Cultural Capitalist Network for Level 3 leaders based off Maxwell's leadership levels, which is basically the producers to the people developers, to the pinnacle of people who are creating legacy and thinking greater than themselves. We are creating a peer network that is a scalable, repeatable process in which that resource sharing, problem solving and problem and belonging occurs.

That can be from anywhere from anyone here in person to all over the world that they have to license to use and get trained into lead.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (34:26.168)
So when is that happening?

Jaclyn Orent (34:28.637)
It's happening already right now. So we've just enrolled our first founding member who's a level four leader. We have acquired a board of advisors that are anyone from an eight figure, like we have an eight figure founder on our board specifically. But we have a church on our board that has 1.3 million people in 113 countries and a thousand year business plan. And we're enrolling people who actually want to help build this infrastructure because.

What I've actually been seeing in the work that I do and ultimately studying change science is that there's no way for the people who have anything, the ability to do anything about what's happening right now to actually sustain those change efforts alone. It's neurobiologically impossible. So we're enrolling founding members at all these different levels now, which includes in-person events here in Boulder, Colorado for level three leaders, club, it's called the club for level four leaders and legacy for level five leaders.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (35:22.102)
And so what's the difference? it?

the levels, what's the distinction between them?

Jaclyn Orent (35:29.961)
So this is from Maxwell, actually. So level three leaders are people who produce results. So people who are effectively, you know, I think of a, what did you say? That's the one I had in mind, but you can also have a leader that produces results too. Like they consistently produce results through the team that they work with. So that's what a level three leader is specifically, because I'll just start at level one as someone who's given the position of leadership, but people follow them because they have to.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (35:39.07)
US people. Sales people?

Jaclyn Orent (35:58.318)
It's called position out, positional leadership. The second thing is people follow them because of the relationships they have with the leader. The third level of leadership is the people follow you because of the results that you've achieved. The fourth level of leadership, they follow you because you develop them as people. And the fifth level of leadership, people follow you because of who you are and what you represent basically. And so these are different levels of leadership. And what we're doing is building infrastructure.

that is repeatable, just like CrossFit and just like YPO is specifically to create something called resonance. So what we know about how change happens from the individual to the organization, the community, all the way up to the system, the highest levels of the system, what actually creates the change is two things. This is based off about 60 years of research I was telling you about. Number one is a social identity group in which you have a shared vision, shared values and shared purpose, okay? That's what cultural catalyst is for people who are listening to this and they're like, that's me.

There's a reason for that. It's been designed that way. So you self-select in it is your New York Giants team and your New York Rangers. And my dad is like an IU fan. So he went to their bowl game this last year he was like, I was surrounded by 55,000 of my best friends. Okay. That is a social identity group. And that's what cultural catalyst is. And the second thing that actually creates change throughout the system. Again, that whole thing I just saying is something called a resident leadership. Okay. And residents is made up of three things, shared vision.

shared compassion, which includes competence, and shared energy, okay? So we have to be surrounded by people. Like if I put a person who makes six figures in the room with a person who's an eight figure founder, that's gonna turn into a mentee dynamic. If you put two peers in the room, they can actually resource share with each other. They can problem solve with each other, and they can also ultimately see each other's blind spots. But that doesn't happen unless they have a shared vision in which they both agree upon.

Okay, so for cultural catalysts, they want to create a new culture. They want to be part of the solution instead of the problem. And so what we're doing is literally creating different entry points, different experiences, whether it be a council or a club or even a training specifically to help bring these different levels of leaders together to create that resonance, because that resonance either creates what's called the positive emotional attractor that PEA was telling you about or the negative emotional attractor. And it either sustains change efforts or halts change efforts.

Jaclyn Orent (38:21.574)
And what we learn about change is it's completely non-linear. And that completely frustrates the logical mind because the way that our society has been built has been, you know, saying that science is the end all and be all. And it is an important part of our living experience. And it's also not looking at the overall context of what's happening. And what I mean by that is when we look at what, when we look at people who are outliers in terms of their performance and their effectiveness, why are they that way?

They often, John Maxwell also said it was the 10,000 hour rule specifically, but why are those people more productive and more effective? And part of what we get to address is the underlying field that is causing people to behave and get the outcomes they both achieve both personally and effectively to create a causal effects across the system because change is not linear. No matter how frustrating the mind might think that is, is part of reality. And once we learn to have the yes and approach.

we can address things strategically and also be open to possibilities and ways of doing things that are way beyond what we can imagine that are more effective and more efficient.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (39:26.136)
Yeah, totally makes sense. Very cool. What about the, because I'll use an example because everybody knows who he is. Like must could land in all five of your category, right? people go to work for SpaceX because they want to be part of building this unbelievable thing. They want to get paid. Right. It just being paid well is not enough. so how do you treat people who are

Jaclyn Orent (39:37.533)
Totally. Yeah, yeah.

Jaclyn Orent (39:48.487)
great.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (39:56.206)
crossing those one through five.

Jaclyn Orent (39:59.804)
I don't have an answer to that question right now, honestly. So we're in process of building this. Yeah, no. This is actually, funny. We have a friend of ours who's a COO and a president of an eight figure business and she would technically fall in L4 right now. So she's a people development. However, she's not a founder. And so she doesn't take on the same risk as a founder does. However, she's still in the people development.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (40:02.72)
Yeah, I'm not trying to throw you a curve, I'm just thinking.

Jaclyn Orent (40:23.068)
These are some of the questions that we get to figure out as we design a repeatable infrastructure that is something that can be used to create a specific outcome all across the world at the moment.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (40:33.522)
it's really helpful for people to recognize back to Dan Sullivan, your unique ability. Like any, what I learned from Dan, just so we, for the audience, and you already know this is anything that anybody else can do. I let them do it. And I want them to do it because not that I'm so special, but I have a unique ability. And if I'll, if I focus on that, I will be exponentially.

happier, first of all, and more productive, second of all. So there's, you my kids yell at me all the time because none of this stuff that I could do that I don't want to do or is not maximum productivity, I just don't do it, right? Somebody else does it, right? So, and they think I'm losing, but it's a whole cultural thing. Speaking of culture.

Jaclyn Orent (41:17.584)
Yep. Yep. Yep. And I think I...

Jaclyn Orent (41:25.84)
Well, I mean, and also they haven't had the lived experience of learning those values like you have. And we live in a world where, you know, the way that the system has been set up on an education level, which is very outdated, is that everyone has to do the same thing in the assembly line. And so we've learned to do the thing instead of to outsource the thing. And so when you were saying that education can be the greatest investment is because it allows one to find what those unique abilities are.

And for me, for example, it's like I, for like the last decade, I was a coach specifically and then ended up working with executives and systemic critical leverage positions. And then once I applied to grad school and then went through my own scaling science using Hardy's work, I actually realized that my instinct to be an architect when I was literally a child is actually correct. I am indeed a systems architect and I'm able to see how different systems work.

and how they work together and ultimately organize an architecture. And I would never have known that going to work for someone else. When you have get hired into a job, for example, they give you a set role of responsibilities and KPIs, and they give you a box to be able to play within. And that is not where innovation occurs. Innovation occurs in the unknown. Innovation occurs in those places of, you know, trying to achieve something that you're not sure that you can achieve because it actually requires you to develop new abilities.

new ways of thinking, new ways of doing things that makes you find out things about yourself that you would never have known before. And that's actually one of the founding principles of the scaling science is that scaling incrementally is, you know, not just growth. What it does is it literally prevents you from redefining who you are and simplifying your system so you can focus on what you do best and simplify your system so you can scale. And this is, yes, this is where we find the meaning and the purpose in life. And when you say that

people get to, know, Musk is known for his ridiculous work hours. So it's like, why are those people wanting to work for Musk? And it's because he has a compelling vision for the future that activates these people. creates PA in the system. And so whether it be for the family office or the investors who are listening to this, number one, from a family office perspective is like, what is your vision for the future? And is it compelling to the people that you support? Is it compelling to your team? Cause if it's not, they're not going to want to put in the extra work.

Jaclyn Orent (43:46.597)
They're literally going to show up for the paycheck. And from an investor standpoint, it's what is the higher purpose of the business? Okay. If there is no higher purpose to the business, then there is no emotionally compelling reason to be able to overcome the inevitable challenges that come with doing something new or hard. And so it's the same thing on two different sides. And it's, it's, it's just two different ways of looking at it. And whether you're an investor or an owner of a business, it's what is the purpose of your business?

And it can't be about you. was working, was on a call with a founder who was interested in hiring me a couple years ago. And when I asked him the seven levels deep exercise, what I found is the reason he was trying to scale his business had nothing to do with helping people. had to do with himself. And that is not a good enough reason to do that. And I told him that I was like, I am not interested.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (44:36.354)
Well, it have been a good enough reason, and it might have been successful, but it wouldn't be largely effective, I think what you're saying, not to put words in your mouth, in a bigger context. mean, he might have gone wildly successful, but it is less effective than it otherwise had been if it was for something else, right? Even if it's just providing a beautiful product

Jaclyn Orent (45:01.422)
Yes.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (45:05.24)
for people to consume, right?

Jaclyn Orent (45:06.541)
Yes. I mean, if that was his purpose, I would have been more open to it because it was about serving people, but it wasn't. It was about, I want to be seen as a provider, okay, which is a self-serving mission. And one of the challenges that we have as humans, especially when it comes to growth, is the inherent and the incessant entrenchment of the ego that is inherently narcissistic. It's all about itself.

And if we are creating something that's all about ourselves, and even if it looks like it's for other people, I've worked with a founder on this too, it looked like it was whole serving, but in reality it wasn't underneath. That actually affects the ability and the body's ability to sustain its change efforts and get your team on board. Okay. That's what I'm saying is does your vision actually light up your team? Does it give them energy? Does it excite them? Does it inspire them? Is it emotionally compelling to more than just you? And same with the investor.

Is this just about making money? Because we can make money and do good.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (46:03.918)
You know, it's interesting. are, there are, and I use the investment banking. I mean, I'm in New York or I've spent, you know, most of my business life in New York city, but the, depends on the business. Like if you're back in the investment banking and brokerage days, you got juiced because you just sold a bond portfolio to T-Row Price and made $500,000 that day.

Like that was enough for many people to perform. It's not for everybody, but people do get excited about money.

Jaclyn Orent (46:44.685)
Yeah, but it also hits a threshold though, because we know this. Once we get our needs met, what happened, I've seen this in one of the people in our community right now, is she's already achieved what she set out to achieve, and now she's like, now what, right? She's seeking more meaning and purpose. And that's because at some point you have your needs met. And so that's when the higher level needs become important, which are growth and contribution.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (46:47.458)
Totally.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (47:06.264)
So I have a couple of questions that might be disturbing. Can I go for it? So not to you, but to the community. And I'm not advocating this. I'm just noticing it. There seems to be a feeling. A lot of people are getting interviewed, and they're asking business questions. And what was the secret to your success? What changed everything? What can you?

Jaclyn Orent (47:11.405)
Go.

Jaclyn Orent (47:30.137)
.

.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (47:35.155)
say to the next generation or, you know, give us some points of wisdom. And it crosses all kinds of socioeconomic layers. But there's a preponderance of, I'm doing this for a higher power. I believe in God or Jesus. And that's what drives me every day. And so that's why I've been successful. And like I said, I'm just noticing that. not saying one thing or another. You've seen any of this?

Jaclyn Orent (47:41.753)
.

Jaclyn Orent (47:48.43)
Okay.

Jaclyn Orent (48:01.849)
I mean, that's who I surround myself with personally. You wanted to know a little bit about my story. I left corporate America a decade ago to and basically came to the realization that I didn't know who I was or what I wanted. And instead of going back into the workforce, I actually decided to learn about myself and what I was interested in and find a way to contribute in a way that was both meaningful and sustainable. And I ended up fasting on water for 36 days.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (48:32.205)
Why?

Jaclyn Orent (48:33.622)
because I wanted to heal my body to heal the world. And what I experienced during that fast was beyond anything that I had ever been taught or modeled remotely. I grew up fully Jewish. I'm Ashkenazi through and through. And I've been part of all the prayers and all the sayers and all of the, you know, the traditions of Judaism, but I'd never had a spiritual experience before. And to give you more context too, like born in New Jersey, grew up in Ohio. My dad was an executive.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (48:36.152)
Got it. Okay.

Jaclyn Orent (49:01.304)
and my mother an interior designer and decorator. And so this was not something that was around specifically, but I grew up in a very tight knit Jewish community. And so when I needed to heal my body and I got introduced to water fasting, I didn't even know what a spiritual experience was. And what I experienced during that was something that was something that I didn't even know existed. Like complete presence, no thoughts. I actually talked to a neuroscientist this past week and she was like, that means you're...

your default mode network was activated and what happens when you're there and you're open minded and creativity. I was in that for weeks on end and what's called imperturbable peace. Okay. I also experienced love that was flowing through me. That was completely impersonal to me and was, you know, filling me up in a way that I had never experienced before. And ultimately led me to having what's called a spiritual emergency and led to a decade of integration and study on what happened during that experience.

That is actually the foundation of the work that we do. And so I've been studying consciousness science from the researcher and physician, Dr. David Hawkins, for nearly seven years now, because I got to see that what we think we see is not so. And so one of the things that is really important to me and one of the ways that I've actually become who I am has been to dedicate myself to something higher. And that's actually how I've overcome the challenges.

of taking what I experienced from that and ultimately finding parts of myself that were quite frankly wanting to die over and over- and getting to address these parts directly and looking at more in my mortality you know I'm only thirty four so I've actually gotten to look at you know dying and what it would mean to die and allowing myself to experience that process now and what happens when I've actually looked at the fact that I'm going to die in some cases actually had to experience it as well is that-

I am not living from a place that's necessarily just about me anymore. It's actually about the whole, and this is actually part of AA, for example. I wasn't there for addiction treatment specifically, but I did have the opportunity to go through and get help, and part of that was sitting in some AA meetings. And one of the steps of recovery is actually surrendering one's will over to God. And the reason why is because, again, the ego, the way that the mind is structured and the way that the brain works is it cannot see past

Jaclyn Orent (51:20.043)
This or that. It sees things in opposites. Okay, this is not a judgment of the human brain or anything. It's just how it is literally constructed. And what happens is it can't see the greater context of reality. What is it that's holding the thing that you see right now that you can't see right now? And that's where we find wonder. That's where we find grace. That's where we find miracles and synchronicities. And that's also where we find meaning. And so this advent of people, and especially I'm a millennial, and...

You know, these companies that are hiring us for just work is not good enough anymore. There's a trend.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (51:53.775)
It's it's true, not for a lot of people, which is really interesting to me, but for others, know, everybody's on their path of evolution or not. Jathlyn, thank you for sharing that. It's personal and I appreciate it. To me, it's been always obvious, not always. It became obvious to me that there's divinity. I don't actually need to know what it is. You know, I came to that conclusion, right?

Jaclyn Orent (51:57.43)
you

Jaclyn Orent (52:22.838)
you

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (52:23.502)
But there's divinity and it's unmistakable, right? And you talked about death. I got settled with death a long time ago, right? Because I read 130 books in one year, right? It didn't happen by accident. But I appreciate you sharing that story. Because there's a, we've seen it in the last five or six years, especially with Charlie Kirk.

Jaclyn Orent (52:27.958)
Okay.

Jaclyn Orent (52:41.846)
Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (52:53.294)
There was this huge youth that decided to, instead of going to a rave, they're going to go to a church, right? So can't beat that thing, right?

Jaclyn Orent (53:02.699)
Yeah. But I mean, when you look at why, though, from consciousness science, we can actually calibrate what the underlying field is that's causing someone to be some way. And when you actually calibrate what Kirk was doing is he was in the higher level of sacrifice. He was giving his life over to something greater. He was in a position of great, of great danger. And he knew that he set up his life to make sure that it could keep going without him. That's legacy mindset. And so that's having to look at death straight in the face and doing so is actually what gives us life. You know, when we let

the part of us that's afraid of dying or afraid of living or afraid of living to our full potential, that fear of us actually prevents us from finding the meaning and purpose of being alive, which is in both the good and the bad. So that is where we find purpose. And Charlie Cook was a perfect example of that. Whether you agree with him or not, yeah, yeah, it doesn't matter. He was role modding what's called acidic frequency, a spiritual superpower.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (53:54.776)
Totally agree, but it doesn't matter.

Jaclyn Orent (54:01.898)
that ultimately caused what I believe a tipping point. I was actually evaluating this in terms of the science I was studying and caused an a causal nonlinear exponential amount of growth. Did you see that? Yeah. And why is that?

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (54:12.398)
Yeah. Yeah. Unbelievable. Did you see what happened? Three days after he got shot, the applications to be part of the organization went from this to exponential, right? So he achieved his objective, whatever that happened to be.

Jaclyn Orent (54:23.316)
Yep. Yep. Totally. 100%.

Well, he knew what he didn't know, right? Because that's the thing is we know, but we never know the full context of everything because we're only a part of divinity. And he called it a tipping point. That's the funny thing. And a tipping point is indeed that in ICT intentional change theory. And so that was a perfect example of it. That is yet another reason that when someone devotes their life to something higher like that, can cause, again, exponential outcomes at a systemic level that you could never have strategically planned.

methodically proceeded to move forward towards.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (54:59.214)
No way. way. Gladwell talked a lot about that. So I have one other question before we wrap it up, if that's okay. And you can add whatever you want, by the way. So I found real value in human design, the process, right? When you talk about early on in your youth, you were thinking about architecture and then you finally got there. Have you done the human design thing? I'm a manifest generator, right?

Jaclyn Orent (55:05.576)
Yeah, please.

Jaclyn Orent (55:14.204)
Mm-hmm. So funny.

Jaclyn Orent (55:22.921)
Yep.

yes. Great. What numbers? Do you know what numbers?

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (55:28.174)
Did that? Hmm?

1 3 8 again she's telling me Mary's telling me 1 1 3 yeah

Jaclyn Orent (55:36.169)
You're one three.

Amazing. Thank you, Mary. Okay, so I'm a 5'1", emotional projector. I'm a student of Gene Keys, which is a subset of human design. But I am...

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (55:46.155)
Arthur Andrew Bavelas (55:52.184)
There is a projector too. I'm sorry, she was just signaling me. Got it.

Jaclyn Orent (55:54.748)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So for the people who don't know what that means, human design is a system that helps you operate with your unique energetic expression specifically. And one of the reasons I think it's important is because I think that the way that people often treat each other is that everyone's the same. But I like to say that everyone has their position in the grid. It's just up to you to find out what yours is.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (56:17.934)
Not only that, didn't you also find that it gave you permission to be who you are? Like, it's like, okay, I know I've been like this, but this explains why, right?

Jaclyn Orent (56:24.382)
Working on it.

Jaclyn Orent (56:28.562)
Yeah, well, I'm actually going through a process of re changing how my family relates to me. So my mother and my dad are like, why don't you answer me within 24 to 48 hours over text messages? Because I will answer when I want to answer. And they're like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, I really need you to answer. And I was like, no, I actually get to accept the invitations I want when I want to accept it. And even right now, as I'm in conversation with them, I'm actually doing it over email. And they're both generators. And so

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (56:42.263)
Yes.

Jaclyn Orent (56:55.092)
my mother's first generator my dad I think is either generator man of as generator and this is a lot of lingo you can look at a human design. And actually standing in my own emotional sovereignty that no I don't have to tell them where I'm going. I don't need I don't need to tell them what I'm returning or. Well people and this is part of people don't this is part of into the

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (57:10.71)
Right. you're 34 years old for Christ's sake. Okay. get it.

Jaclyn Orent (57:20.656)
oftentimes parents don't actually, they're actually still children inside and they're still treating their children as who they were and not who they are now. And so yes, I am literally standing in this and helping them reorient to me in a way that they don't quite understand, but I am standing in my own sovereignty.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (57:37.259)
It'll be better for sure. Well, I'm excited for you. have not a fair amount, but some of the family office community knows about Tiger 21 as do know Tiger 21? So you might want to look that up only because it's one that's familiar and wildly successful has it. Yeah.

Jaclyn Orent (58:01.428)
I do know what that is. Yes it is. Yep, yep.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (58:03.084)
So it's like, there's, there's Y, I was a member, believe it or not of YEO, entrepreneurs. And that's when I young, never went to YPO. Then there's, there's Vistage or something like that. Right. But good for you. I wish you wild success with it.

Jaclyn Orent (58:08.433)
Interesting. Yeah. Totally.

Jaclyn Orent (58:17.702)
NEO.

Jaclyn Orent (58:22.653)
Thank you. Yeah, well, I'm just living my design building systems that are not dependent on me.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (58:26.446)
Yeah, exactly. Good for you. Well, I'm super glad we had this chat. Thanks for sharing all that. Really appreciate

Jaclyn Orent (58:29.491)
Yep.

Jaclyn Orent (58:34.493)
Well, I didn't see you being into human design at first meeting you, Arthur. That's a surprise.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (58:39.886)
What did I evoke? Old white guy?

Jaclyn Orent (58:43.333)
I mean,

I mean, I don't have conversations with my dad. My dad's probably, my dad's 70. He doesn't go there with me.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (58:54.734)
No, I mean, this is public. is largely Mary and I doing this together. But I've done lots of plant-based medicine. I've been meditating since I was 17. I've read lots of really good Joseph Campbell, et cetera, et cetera, Paramahansa Yogananda. So I'm interested in all that stuff.

Jaclyn Orent (59:11.283)
Yep, got it.

Right? Well that explains why we're here on here being cultural catalysts together then. Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (59:19.758)
There you go. So tell everybody how to get a hold of you.

Jaclyn Orent (59:24.275)
Yep, so the best way to get a hold of us is through cultural catalysts dot net. There is one currently in Europe right now. We are the one in Boulder, Colorado, and we're in the process of making sure you can find us. You can also find me directly as Jacqueline Orent on LinkedIn, and I'm sure Arthur's going to link all this stuff underneath here, and you can find out about more resources, find out more ways that you can get involved. I'm also even writing a book about what is the architecture that we're building and the research behind it.

So if you're interested in learning more, even just participating, part of that is raising your hand and saying, I'm a cultural catalyst. And just like my dad has all the friends from being a New York Rangers fan, that you can also have friends and change culture together with other cultural catalysts.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:00:02.498)
Yeah, awesome. Great. Thank you everybody for being here. Thank you, Jacqueline. That was awesome. Yeah, hang on one second.

Jaclyn Orent (01:00:06.726)
Thank you for having me.