The Power of Sacred Plants: Healing and Awakening.

0:01 Hello, welcome everybody to another episode of Arthur's Round Table. We are super grateful for the community engaging with this podcast and thankful for the family office insights, community sharing with others. And so thank you very much for doing that. We really, really appreciate it. I have to thank our friend in Greece, a fellow Greek who introduced me to Tio Elia, and she has a really interesting community and organization and encourage you all to look at it. We'll mention it in the notes when we send this out, but she's recommended if we talk to Tio.

0:47 Tio and I had a short chat the other day and I was totally all in to to hear his story. So I'm really glad to do this today with you, Tio. Thanks for being here. Thank you for the opportunity. I'm very much looking forward to this. I was very inspired by our short chat and. He's super kind. Thank you. Yeah, me too. So let's start at the very beginning about your where you started your career and how this all unfolded. Yeah, sure. So I so my journey started.

1:30 My spiritual journey started at the age of 24 and at that time I was working as a software developer at Amazon in Seattle. My dog is having some allergies. That's OK, It's contributes to the spirit of this, right? So at the time I was working as a software developer at Amazon in Seattle. I was 24. My life on the surface looked perfect. I had a job that I loved. It was paying me really well. My life was was I enjoyed it even though I was indulging excessively in certain habits which would be considered negative or addictions.

2:11 I personally just saw it as living the life. And then I, I had no intentions of changing anything. And at the age of 24, I had my first LSD experience. I've been doing, you know, substances before that, but I had LSD for the first time at 24 and. Is it, is it fair to say just for the group? Like it's not, it's totally normal at that age to be a party boy and have fun and do all the stuff that you do at 24. Like, you know, it's totally normal. You've got a good job, you got some money to spend. You know, there's nice community up there.

2:53 The other people have money, go out, have cocktails, do drugs, whatever it is, it's totally normal, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, I got into that at the age of 16. So I started with some, you know, over the counter substances which I was abusing and I got into smoking. And so I'd been smoking about 20 or 30 cigarettes a day for about 9 years. And like I said, I loved it. It wasn't something I saw it as as a negative. I just enjoy. And along with that, you know, alcohol started much later, but I was doing other substances which I found better than alcohol. That was the only reason I did not drink alcohol. And so, yeah, like it, it was, you know, I was part of the whole normal culture that people indulge in at that age. At least, you know, in my time they used to. I feel like now there's more awareness and there are different choices people are making. But at that time, about 11 years ago, that was very much the, the normal thing to do.

3:51 And so, you know, this LSD experience was just so beautiful. It it did not become spiritual but just opened me up to another world and. Stuff, Yeah. Yeah, and, and it did change my life in realizing that there is so much beyond what we see with our normal lives. But at this time, you know, it was still very much. I got high and I was very much into getting high. And then I had heard that ayahuasca is the most powerful psychedelic. So I said, OK, if LSD is so amazing, ayahuasca will just be 100 times better than this. So let's do some Ayawaska and get even more high. Like I had not studied or researched Ayawaska at all had, you know, not really understood that it's a sacred plant. It's a sacred medicine that's used for healing and for awakening consciousness.

4:54 So I basically just through a series of very magical circumstances, landed up in Brazil at a centre where the focus was spirituality and healing, but I had no personal interest in that. So I basically my my whole ego narrative was, well, I grew up in India. I have got training to ignore religion and spirituality for 24 years. So I can just go to this place, ignore all the BS and go and get high. And the only reason I chose the place was that it was a very, you know, like comfortable place to be instead of going into a shaman's Hut or something more intense like that.

5:38 Or in Brazil it's also legal. Like it's the churches that do ayahuasca. And I had no interest in church and religion. So it was more of a luxury thing than going to Peru in the middle of the exactly tourist and yeah, roughing it and having the, I don't want to call it the true ayahuasca experience, but it's not necessarily associated with luxury surroundings, right? I mean, see it, it wasn't super luxury, it was just, it was nice and it was clean and it was comfortable. And like, that was the main thing. I, I wasn't really looking for super luxury, even though those options exist nowadays, like 11 years back, you know, there were less options.

6:21 And I really just want, so basically the magical circumstance that landed me here was that a person I was kind of seeing at that time, she wanted to come to Brazil for the World Cup that was happening in 2014. And I had no interest in soccer. So she basically told me that she wants to go with me to Brazil. And I said, OK, I'll go with you. And I just did LSD at the time and I, I remembered that I was as South America, so wonderful. And in Brazil, there was actually really only one center at the time, like one retreat center. And everything else was either churches or something very, you know, like indigenous rough. And I said, OK, this place looks great. I can ignore all the BS and I can go to this place. So what ended up happening was that the ayahuasca had completely different plans for me. I went in with the intention to get high. And right from the first experience, it just blasted open my consciousness.

7:21 And for the first time, I had a direct experience of higher consciousness, the mystical and the divine. And you know, what I wanted the listeners to know is like this story contains a lot of power. Like I'm not just sharing it for you to get to know me. I'm also sharing it because there's something very powerful in this is that there's a big narrative in spirituality that you have to believe in order for it to work for you. Now that the whole the secret movement and all of this new spirituality, it's very focused around belief. If you don't believe, it doesn't work for you. The more you believe it works for you. And I had negative belief.

8:05 I was super skeptical. I was super cynical. I had no interest in healing therapy of consciousness. I looked at it with so much skepticism and cynicism. I was basically because I, I grew up in India, right? It's very big over there. And I just from a very early age could see through the hypocrisy. People would say one thing and act in completely opposite ways. I said, this is all, yes, none of this is real. They're just brainwashing. And like, basically I, at the age of 10 or 11, just woke up from all of that and never believed it again. Even to this day, I'm not really into all of that typical, you know, religion and spirituality narratives.

8:51 So I did not believe. But still, I had the direct experience because I like, you know, after 11 years of doing this work, I know for a fact that belief is not a prerequisite. Reality is not conditioned upon our beliefs. Imagine if reality was conditioned upon our beliefs, what this word would be everyone just what they want. It's a crazy word. No reality is solid. It's objective and it doesn't require your belief. So higher consciousness is real, but you cannot have someone else prove it for you on paper and read about it and say, OK, higher consciousness is real. Like even if today or tomorrow science is to prove God and the divine exist right, you still not have the experience.

9:34 So it doesn't matter if science proves it or not until you connect with the divine to higher consciousness to to the mystical. So are you, are you saying, well, this is there's lots of interesting things here. First, we talked a little bit about this, believing that going into something like an ayahuasca journey and believing that it has potential to have impact, is that different than being open to it? Having is right. You could be open to it, not believe it, but it has the potential, right? Yeah, and I both of those are true and I'm adding. The third option is that even if you're close to it, it can still work for.

10:23 You, yes. I was close and negative, right? I'm not just zero, like zero I would say is maybe tending towards being open. It's like, OK, I'm just, I just want to see what happens. Like there's maybe some curiosity. That's why you're doing it. I was negative. I just wanted to get high. I just want to see beautiful. I know I do not believe I'm going to connect with the divine. And when I say divine, I don't mean one specific God. For me, the divine is the mystical. It's higher consciousness. All the same. I don't like to define in words because. It's ridiculous. I happen to to to agree with you that the define the divine is obvious. Like all you have to do is look at a flower, a tree, a plant and there's divinity. So you don't have to attach yourself to some dogmatic thing to explain that right?

11:11 Just one religion another. And if you haven't a religion that you are attached to or have faith with, good for you if it works for you. I have no issue with that at all. But I agree with you that the Divinity is omnipresent. I mean, you can't deny that something's going on, right? So did you? Did you had No Fear at all of entering this 'cause you were intentionally wanting to have the ultimate high right? Yeah, I mean, see, I had not researched anything, right? So I did not know what can go wrong, what is bad, really. What What what? I did not believe that there's such a thing as a negative experience because I had not read about anyone else's stuff. The only thing I'd heard it's is the most powerful psychedelic in the world.

12:01 If I just take LSD as a psychedelic and say OK, this is even more powerful, it's just going to get better. That's the only possibility in my head. And basically so my first experience. So I had 4 experiences in that retreat across 9 days. And my first experience basically it I connected with the mystical, the divine and I was having a real experience. I mean it was so bizarrely I was having a multi dimensional experience of consciousness where the first literally the first thing I experienced was that I explored out of my body and I was no longer me and I just became one with everything around me, which is, you know what everyone talks about.

12:47 But this oneness was so specific in a sense, like I became a frog, I became a tree, I became a leaf on the tree. I became the music that was playing in the room. I was the waves moving through the walls. I was, you know, like, like I was actually experiencing so many of these things as though it's I. So instead of being I Rohan at the time or a man or a human, I was I the leaf, I was I the tree, I was I the stone, I was I the frog, the music all at the same time. So it was multi dimension. It wasn't just me. One thing having one conscious and multiple consciousness experiencing together. And that was like, how do you even explain something like that?

13:32 And then you suddenly realize that everything has consciousness and everything is alive. And then you know, it became deeper and deeper and deeper that experience. So like by the end of it, I was just like, there's no doubt left. There's no questions to ask anymore. It's so obvious. It's so in your face that that, you know, you've got your mind just stops at that point, yeah. So can we talk a little bit about we clearly that was a an epiphany for you and and my have spoke to many that have had the same experience or similar experiences. Is the process that you went through was it is excruciating, as it often is for people where you're purging and, and how important? There's two questions, you know, is was the process really rough physically and how important was it, now that you look back on it, to have a good guide and a shaman to walk you through all that?

14:40 So you know, maybe I will get into that slowly because my first experiences, like my first two experiences were just absolutely pure bliss and beauty. There was nothing tough, intense, no purging, nothing at all. And in my second experience, I saw my future and my the the future that or like one potential future. Let me let me put it this way. And the future that was shown to me was that I am meant to come and train as an Ayawas Kashama. And it was just so obvious that that is the path I'm going to take. You know, it wasn't something nice to consider.

15:21 It was just like, yeah, this is my future. And I actually like the scenes that I saw in that, in that vision have actually transpired in my life. I've actually experienced them. And they were Deja vu moments or like, oh, I saw this five years ago, three years ago, seven years ago. Like it actually happened. And so that was also super beautiful. And that was the first half of the experience. And the second-half I went to other planets and I was like, not just meeting aliens, I was being one of the aliens who was with other aliens. And like, so I could just see that, you know, there are so many more life forms than just being human and so many other dimensions and reality.

16:04 So it was like, you know, it was the experience everyone really craves for. Like a lot of people go to ayahuasca to have such experiences. They're not guaranteed that, but that's what they want. Like, they want this big awakening. And I was not looking for that. Like, I was looking to just have nice visuals like LSD. But like, this was actually completely different. So if you were doing the, let's just say the third one, were you then looking for more of what you experienced? So you arguably could beef experience that enlightenment even more. Or were you still trying to try? I mean, it was at that time, it was like a mix of the two mentalities.

16:49 So, you know, one part of me has realized that this is not just getting high. This is something way beyond. This is not just happening in my head, like this is reality. And then there was another part of me which was my, you know, my more addictive part or the one who just wants to make things bigger and bigger, which was like, OK, Day 1 was amazing. Day 2 was way more spectacular. And then day three will only get better. And basically we, we had the option of asking for slightly higher doses and especially, you know, so basically the, the, the facilitator was very experienced and very respectful. And as long as you are having a good experience and you are not entering into fear, she was encouraging that you can take a bit more.

17:36 So I ended up taking double of my first experience. So, you know, the first time I had 60ML, the second time I had 80ML and this time I went for I think 100 or 120 ML something some very big number and I end up overdosing. And that third experience was it was not, it was not the the same. It was rough in different ways. Like it wasn't still as bad as I have many other experience I've had later. So, you know, just for the audience, like I've had personally, I've had 600 plus experiences with iOS for myself. I've facilitated, yeah.

18:16 And I've facilitated over 5000 unique experiences for other people. So, you know, I've, I've seen a lot of what happens for me and what happens for other people. So I like it it that's why I said, and I'll get to it a bit later because yeah, it did get way more rough later on. But even that third overdose experience, finally, it was just it was very overwhelming because you know, one of the scenes I remember from that experience was just that I basically just went into super ancient history where the dinosaurs existed. And then I was like zoned super into the future where it was like a super different high tech reality.

19:00 And so like I was just experiencing time in this super fast, intense way. And it was very uncomfortable. But the the most unbelievable consequence of that experience was that, like I said, I came into this experience not wanting to quit any of the substances I was using. I had no intention even during the retreat to change that. So even after I had my awakening, I had no intention to change that. And you know, on up until the 3rd experience, I was still smoking at the retreat center. So I like I was because I enjoyed it.

19:43 And in the third experience, I don't even know what actually happened because it was so overwhelming and it wasn't overdose and everything was happening so quickly. But when I came out of that experience, I knew I had already quit all the substances and I had no interest in in smoking anymore and drinking anymore and using any drugs or anything else. Like I was just, I knew I was done with it for life. And you had no. No intention to to fix that problem. I mean, obviously. I mean, it was not even a problem. It wasn't a problem, right? Yeah. So I had just woken up from that experience. Woken up as in I was awake the whole time, but like I just come into my normal consciousness and realized that I'm just a different person starting today and as eleven years later, I've not touched anything.

20:36 Like I had no temptations, no withdrawals, nothing. I was just done and that was so unbelievable to me, mainly because I had no interest in quitting. You know, a lot of people come like I've seen, I've seen over 1000 people. I've facilitated over 1000 people drinking ayahs. Can people come with those intentions? They want to quit substance addictions, they want to heal all kinds of things. And it's not a guarantee that you will have that experience. You know, a lot of people have come with that intention and have not had it. I did not even go with that intention and that's the experience that I had. So you know, all this to say that ayahuasca is is walking into the unknown. It you, you can have intentions, you can have expectations, but you really just you don't know what's going to happen and well, we.

21:29 We talked about this in, in my experience, I've done things with intention like this and the medicine had something different in mind, right? Yeah. It's it's arguably good to go in with an intention, I guess, but the medicine usually has its own idea of what you need, right? Yeah, sorry about, you know, the dog's fine. I actually saw an animal running behind you in the field, some sort of animal way back there. Must be another.

22:14 Dog. Yeah. Yeah, so. Dog's totally fine. Don't worry about it, OK? So, yeah, it, it, it's hard for, you know, normal people to kind of get this, that the plant actually has an intelligence and it has its own intentions. It, it doesn't just have an intelligence, in my experience, after 11 years working with it is super intelligence. It's way more intelligent than we are. It knows what we need way more than we do. And we are so confined to the limits of our mind and our consciousness. And this is, you know, several dimensions of consciousness beyond what we, what we usually experience. So the intelligence like, you know, if you, if you just, you know, looking back to, you know, Einstein's court that you can't solve problems from the same level that they were created, You need to look from a higher intelligence. Like this is not just looking from a higher intense, looking from 10 levels higher of intelligence. That's how ICIOS it's it's like we can't actually comprehend what this intelligence even is.

23:31 We are so impressed with AI, but like this time ancient intelligence that is way beyond anything that we can create or we can have. And that is what you know, I I, when I'm facilitating now for people like I, I, I do my best to guide them to be in the energy of just be open to receiving what the plant has in store for you. You can come with your expectations, you can come with your intention, you can come with your scepticism. And sinister like I am, I'm open to everything because. Well, you're a perfect example, yeah. I was that person. Yeah. Yeah, just come as you are, as long as you are, you know, willing to let the experience take you, whereas going to be.

24:14 So talking about bad experience or rough experiences, I I kind of know exactly who may have a bad experience or when they would have a bad experience. It's essentially someone who is resisting the experience, someone who doesn't want to go where the plant wants to take you. Is is is in? Is that obvious at the beginning? Often times. I I could tell, but I may not tell the person that. I may or may not tell the person that. Sorry, you're muted. Sorry.

24:55 Yeah, OK. Yeah. So I may, I, I can usually see it, I may or may not tell the person that because they need to have the experience that they need to have. I don't believe that there's any such thing as a bad IO experience. If there is masterful facilitation happening, if, if the person knows how to guide you through it and, and take you back to everyday life, there cannot be such a thing as a bad IO experience. But yeah, there are lots of people who are facilitating Iowa who have no clue what they're doing or who have little experience and they think that they know everything. I used to be that guy. So I'm, again, I'm talking from experience. And after some time I was just like, yeah, I know what I was and like it it. I only really knew I was ready to graduate from my apprenticeship after 8 years.

25:47 I, I went through an 8 year apprenticeship in between that there were many moments where I felt I'm ready and I know it all. It was only after eight years when I had the humility to say I really don't know this in this intelligence and what is capable of. But I've developed enough skills that whatever happens, I am, I am capable to listen and to guide the person through that experience. So experience is a great yeah, I still can't guarantee what someone is going to have, but you know, they're usually signs. If someone is resistant, I've developed enough experience to be able to tell.

26:27 What is, you know, I'm sure a lot of people are curious that, you know, we have regulatory issues. You really are not supposed to do it in the US Often people go to Peru or Brazil to get it done or Costa Rica or something. When you went there, it just was serendipity because your girlfriend wanted to see the soccer game and it turns out that was probably the best place to do it at the time, aside from maybe Peru or something. Is there, is there? And you're in Brazil now, so which suggests that you obviously don't want to practice in the US because it's not legal, etcetera. I guess I'm not speaking for you. Is there any movement?

27:14 Well, let me put it this way. Is it still a good idea for somebody who wants to experience this to come and do it in a place like Brazil with you, for example, or another qualified shaman? Or is there opportunity to do it in the US? Do you think in a meaningful way? I personally don't recommend it. You know, even if they were to legalize it, I still wouldn't recommend it, mainly because this is the home. The jungle is the home of the plant. And the plant, like I said, is intelligent. It's got a spirit, a spirit that is very connected to where it's growing, to the environment it is in.

28:01 You know, you just, it's like we, this is the, the Western attitude is let's just extract the chemicals because this is just some brain thing and all you have to do is get the, the right chemicals and it's going to work for you. They, they, they literally kill the soul and the spirit of the substance. That's what they're doing. I believe with the magic mushrooms. They're just extracting the cylosyphin and it's just about healing. But the actual mushrooms, like when you there is a sacred ceremony that happens when you consume them and you do it in a ceremonial setting, you do it with the right people who you know, they, they have been initiated by the mushrooms and said, so I was initiated as an ayahuasca shaman by ayahuasca. It was the plant that called me to the plant that showed me that, yeah, I want you to train, to learn and then to guide people.

28:54 It wasn't just OK. Today I decided I want to start serving iOS with people and I'm just going to buy ayahuasca online and start giving it out to people. Like in my opinion that that is what the best somehow just never seems to get is that there is something like soul and spirit in everything and that spirit belongs in an environment. And that's why I just always would say forever, you know, does like legalization is not the criteria for me. It's where does the where does the experience belong? And in cities. And I know people who've done it in basements in New York, and then they've come here and they, they like, they literally just say that there's no comparison to. The as a compare, yeah.

29:42 So in the context of that and we'll move on. But I'm just curious because we are, it seems to be convincing that this sort of experience would help people that have PTSD and that sort of thing. And so that is why many people in the US want to have it legalized so it can be administered with qualified people and help these poor people that have suffered in wars and otherwise. Do you think that there's a a path for that and to be effective aside from being in the real environment of work in the jungle, for example, do you think that like whether it's ibogaine, whether it's ayahuasca, whether it's psilocybin? See, I, I think there are, there are certain substances that are very effective for healing.

30:46 I wouldn't personally want to put ayahuasca into that bucket. Really. That's. That's really interesting to hear. And, and the reason I say that is that it's kind of similar to the point that I was making earlier is that it's a very powerful healer. It's one of the most powerful healers on the planet, undeniably. But that healing happens in a much bigger context to what the West focuses on. You know, like people want to heal depression, they want to heal PTSD. It's again very mind focused, mind obsessed and I also works with healing the spirit and in my experience the spirit is the source of everything that is happening in our system.

31:34 So what people are experiencing as mental disturbance or mental health issues, that is depression, anxiety, PTSD, whatever it is, they are symptoms. They are not the actual problem and the West focus on fixing those as though they are the problem. All of these in my experience are problems of the spirit and the soul and that's what iOS Achilles. But the reason I said I don't, I personally wouldn't want to get ayahuasca into the the pharmaceutical or clinical setting is that it would then be reduced to the mind. And in my opinion, like that is another big issue of the vessel. Everything is very reductionist. They want to reduce everything down to the, the formula and the, the, the most basic thing and they just kill the expansiveness that it holds.

32:24 And it's something, one part of my mission, my message is that I want to keep ayahuasca expansive and, and I want, I want to fight the narrative of the West of reducing it to healing. Like iOS has so much more than healing. Yes, it healed my soul and my spirit. I was deeply suffering and deeply damaged. Like I had a lot of trauma. And I am so happy that that's not the only thing that it did for me that was a consequence. Like this is one more thing people don't realize is that when your soul and your spirit awakens, healing the mind is a consequence of that. It's not the thing you focus on.

33:07 And that has been one of the biggest things I have actually learned in the last three years after graduating from my apprenticeship because my, my, my teacher, she was a therapist. She is a therapist. And you know, her whole model was still very mind focused and healing focus. And her whole thing was to focus on healing. And it was only after coming out of that that I start getting the message from iOS is that we are not here to focus on healing. Healing is a Viper is a consequence. When your soul awakens, you heal. It's automatic and and the way I see it. All encompass encompassing thing, right? And you know, the, The thing is, people are trying to heal PTSD, then they're trying to heal depression, then they're trying to heal anxiety, then they're trying to heal trauma.

33:55 It's like they're focusing on 1111 thing. And the way I see it, all of that, you can look at it as baggage of darkness, I guess, dark baggage, right? You don't have the light. Look at it. You turn on the light, the the darkness just dispels it automatically dispels all of it, not one thing at a time, which is a linear approach. You're literally going to the source, turning on the light, everything starts healing. I'm not saying it happens overnight, but when you focus only on that and you focus on feeding the light, the, the darkness, it, it, it goes like it's just how it works.

34:38 And ayahuasca is not the only way. Like you can turn on the light in so many years. Like in the last few years, I've been training in multiple modalities because my mission is to awaken the light. And ayahuasca is really just one way, so very powerful way. I might still work with it, but it's really not the only way. And that's why there's so many healers in the world who do this kind of work. And they don't even need to use plants because they know how to turn on the light and. Breath work. It's often said that breath work is a You can get arguably to the same place, right? If if you're doing the right methods, yeah. Like there are kundalini practices, there are tons of practices. There are so many practices that can do the same thing, Holotropic breathing, but there are many practices. The thing is that for people who are very blocked, especially people who are very skeptical and cynical, Ayosk is very powerful because it just takes you there. If you're doing it in the right setting or the right person, you can just go there if the I like, you know, if the plant has that intention for you, it can just take you there directly. It just bypasses all of these, all of the skepticism and cynicism and all of the blocks that are there. So, you know, when it, when it comes to breath work and all, it does require a lot of effort and intention and people have to be able to go through that for prolonged periods. I ask that you drink it once or a few times. You can probably just jump there. So it's super interesting if you don't mind me sharing my experience.

36:09 So I've done, as we've mentioned, several plant based journeys and they were all exceptional in terms of revealing things that seemingly I had issues or problems with. And I have nothing but good to say about it. And I haven't been compelled such like I'm hoping to doing more, but I haven't been rushing back to do more. Is there Aside from your training, was there a reason why you feel like it's valuable to you or others to continue to have these ayahuasca experiences on an ongoing basis?

36:54 Yeah, so I mean, the reason I had over 600 experiences was primarily because it was part of my training. And, you know, each the the most beautiful thing about ayahuasca, which really I I do believe it differentiates it from most, if not all of the psychedelics. Most, not all, but most is that every single experience is unique. You cannot have the same ayahuasca experience twice, even between two people. You know, it's like snowflakes. There's every single snowflake is unique. Every single Ayawaska experience is unique. You will never find 2 that are exactly the same. And so I had to go through that training to know within me what are the, the variety of experiences training with over 1000 people to see what are the different experiences.

37:39 But now, you know, in the last three years I've barely had, I would say maybe a dozen experiences, maybe a bit more. And the last time I had it was over six months ago. So I, I don't drink very often now because also part of my training in the last three years is how do I live in that state? How do I embody that state versus need to drink it all the time? So when it comes to another person who is not training to be a shaman or something, I would say there is value definitely in drinking more than once. There are lots of people I've seen who, you know, make it a ritual to do something once every year or twice a year.

38:26 I think that can be very powerful. But the main thing I would say is that there is the call the plant. Like I said, it's intelligent and it calls you and when it calls you is definitely a time to do it. That is a thing, something you should not ignore. Apart from that, you, you know there are so many things to say on this topic because some people will come into the magical thinking again. I see this from experience. If I keep drinking, I also I'll become healed. It doesn't work that way. You. Can just be stuck in the same place, keep drinking and nothing changes. Things can actually get worse. So it's not a magic bill when it calls you, it can definitely do magic in your life.

39:08 It called me like, you know, I can only say that it called me the first time because there's no way I, I could have orchestrated that sequence of events. Everything just fell in place. So perfect. So the, the, the calling is 1 big sign that it's time to drink ayahuasca. Apart from that, I would say is that don't abuse it, but it's a very powerful sacred plant. Like I don't even want to call it a medicine because although it heals, it's got so much more potential. Yeah, it's it's really interesting to see that plant based medicine is trending, right.

39:50 I don't know whether it's a by product of the my generation having done drugs at, you know, 17/18/19 because it was a thing to do, you know, the hippie days and then maturing as adults and then seeing the value because it was. Now, available in the context of healing, let's say is, is the is the general. I, I don't want to say the general population because some people are just opposed to anything like this no matter what, but is there a, a growing acceptance of doing this sort of thing in the right context, something that you see from your perspective in Brazil there?

40:44 I mean, there are there more and more people open to doing this? Oh, yeah. I mean, it's AI would say it's a growing movement. There's so many people who are waking up to iOS. You know, it's just spreading through the collective consciousness and more people are becoming aware. A lot of people are being called, they're answering the call. Doesn't mean that they go to the right place so they have the best experience, but a lot more people are doing it. Something I wanted to say anyway. I I'll come back. Yeah, I, I sort of convoluted 222 questions in there because a lot of people of my generation, for example, you know, we did drugs, We were in high school because that was the thing to do.

41:35 I was wondering, one of the things that arguably one should be concerned with is especially with doing it this sort of thing with people that you don't know or professionals, is that even, you know, smoking a joint with your friend down the street now as a kid, you don't even know if there's it's been tainted anymore. It's really risky, right? Yeah, so actually I, I did remember what I was going to say. So go ahead before I answer your question. So, you know, I, I in the, in the 1000 plus people that I have facilitated, there were so many people who were skeptical, who had, or who had never done anything in their life, like they had not had a sip of alcohol, never smoked a cigarette, let alone joints or drugs. Like they were like, you know, Puritans and they came and drank iOS.

42:31 Like that's how much is spread into the the collective consciousness. Is that even someone like that, not just one person, but many people like that would consider doing ayahuasca because they see it differently. So I would definitely say that the narrative is changing around the in, in the US. It's just a scheduled one substance, which is bizarre. And at the same time, you know, there is a positive in there because it doesn't become abusive. It it does, you know, kind of force people to do it in the right setting. A lot of people do travel to South America to do it with the shamans or in churches or whatever they're doing in retreat centers. So there are, you know, some positives to the illegality of it, but at least the perception needs to change that it's not the same as doing cocaine or heroin. Worlds apart.

43:23 It's literally worlds apart. If anything, it heals addictions through those substances. It makes people love. But you know, there was another point I wanted to make before we get into concerns is that, you know, on, on the topic of healing, there's a, there's a strong narrative in the world, especially in the spiritual community, in the personal development community, that the world needs more healing or the world needs a lot of healing. And my narrative is that the world needs more consciousness. It doesn't need more healing, it needs more consciousness. And conscious healing is a byproduct of consciousness. But if we just keep focusing on healing, it actually drops our consciousness into darker states. Like that's what I've seen in my past decade is that the more people focus on healing and trauma, it actually gets darker and darker and darker.

44:18 Like people go into these kind of black holes where it's, it's like there's so much negativity and people like, you know, then people get also very angry at the system and how everything is broken and like those spirals just get amplified so strongly. So I cannot. I feel like. That that's a transition into the whole concerns thing is that it does matter who you're drinking with and what is their narrative about the world? What is their narrative about Ayahuasca? What, how they want to facilitate because if someone is just going to take you deeper into healing, but actually Into Darkness. And there's so many facilitators who do this, you know, they, they talk about healing, but then they, they start talking about what's wrong with the world, how the system is broken.

45:06 And what is that going is it's really just feeling a negativity. That doesn't sound like it's a path to healing, bringing people, not even further. Do you think people do that be intentionally or that they're they're just sad sallies and they can't get out of their own way? It's not at all intentional. It's, it's actually very unfortunate because it's become a culture. It's, you know, a lot of people, they just go into these conspiracies. They just go into these kinds of narratives which are very dark. And it's one of the traps on the on the path to awakening. Like especially for shamans in as part of my training, I fell into that trap very much like I was very much that person who was, you know, in the darkness, in the negativity and just feeding that more and more until for whatever reason, like I just call it grace. Like I was pulled out of that black grace. Like for me, it's like all of my, my whole journey has been governed by grace.

46:08 Like I wouldn't say I healed myself. I wouldn't say I awakened my higher consciousness. I wouldn't say I got out of that black hole of conspiracy and darkness. Like literally I will every time. It was just grace carrying me into higher and higher states. And my training, especially in the last three years it I have been, I would say I was kind of the divine has been teaching me how to facilitate grace rather than teach people how to heal. I say, how do we open people up to grace? How do we open people up to, to their, their light awake rather than they have to do all of this hard work of healing and go through all of their traumas. Like, is there another way? And there is, like in my experience, there is is grace. So this is really interesting, Teo, because in some of the experiences that I've had, they've been with several other people who have done these retreats together as a group and they continue to come back together as a group to do these things.

47:11 And they're like endless seekers. And they're not really, they're there for community more than anything else, which was pretty obvious to me in, in my case, I just went in the corner and didn't really get involved in at what anybody else was doing. But it seems to me like, sadly, just like human nature, people attach themselves to how bad things are and they find community and, and people who feel the same way and same ideology. So I could see how that could be a roadblock or a path that people go down like a slippery slope and get involved in that.

47:58 It's, it's a big part of the community, especially in iOS, you know, because ayahuasca tends to open up bones and, and the darker side it, it, there is a tendency of people to go there, especially if that's, you know, they are, they are severely traumatized. And if they don't have the right facilitator, they actually fuel that and they just go deeper into that. It's like, Oh yeah, you have traumas and I need to heal it and you need to awaken more traumas. And it's already been studied in psychology and psychotherapy. You know, like part of my training was psychotherapy and psychology, like it's already been studied there that there is such a thing as re traumatizing, of course, and do get re traumatized.

48:38 And you know, it is unfortunate, but there is the, the best we can do is to talk about or bring more awareness about that and offer opportunities that are different, offer opportunities that provide a completely different part. And you know, like that is one of the the big missions I am on is that these are the messages I want to get out into the world because I don't see a lot of people talking about this. Honestly, like a lot of the people who are in the iOS community or in the spiritual community, they are just very focused on healing and digging into traumas deeper and deeper and deeper. And I used to be that person. So, you know, I'm not judging it like I am literally just wanting to, to wake people up from that, that kind of black hole, which sucks everyone, you know? So you said it really elegantly before and I'm going to ask you to try to say it again.

49:35 You said the healing of the traumas and depression ends up being a by product of awakening the consciousness. Is that how you put it? Yeah, awakening, soul, spirit, consciousness, whatever word you want to use. I don't care, honestly. Awakening the light within. You. Don't even use any of these words, like just come and have the experience honestly, like that, that, you know, even saying these words, a lot of people just go into believing them and it's like, oh, if I do this, it will happen. And then like the ego just takes over that matter. Oh, I'm awakening my light, but actually I'm not doing anything. Like they're like actually awakening the light is very different than just talking about it or thinking about it. And I'm telling you as someone who has come from a lot of trauma, who's come from deep depression, like I had a three-year period where I was so depressed, I was suicidal. I was like, I just could not get out of bed. I used to just be sitting and watching TV for 18 hours a day. Like that was my life for a long period of time. So what?

50:35 What part of your life while you're in Seattle working after that? Yeah, it's so after actually during my training. So the only thing that you're. Yeah, the only thing that would Get Me Out of bed would be going and facilitating a retreat because that would bring some light into my life. But the moment that would get over, it was like I would just be back in the same place. And it wasn't the same place like, you know, it was. I had to go through a deep valley and there was movement happening. But again, like I that was my journey and I need to learn a lot from that. And what I learned from that is that it doesn't mean have to go on that long. Things can shift faster.

51:16 Yeah, I, but I, I, I didn't need to go through that. But I don't want to make that as an example that everyone has to go through that if they are. Right. Yeah, that makes sense. But it's really an interesting perspective that I hadn't been exposed to or thought about that getting to a a point, whatever you want to call it, of light. Actually all the other stuff gets solved because you've solved a bigger problem, right? Yeah, I didn't put it very well, but. No, I mean that that's exactly it. So I, I want to share two things here. You know, 1 is that, so I'll, I'll get to that later. What you said.

51:58 So basically it's, you know, Einstein coming back to what Einstein said, it's that there are higher levels of consciousness where reality self harmonize. And you know, there's this very beautiful thing called the map of consciousness. Anyone can go and look it up on the Internet and it was created by a researcher done very scientifically. It was David Hawkins who did it or Richard. No, it's David Hawkins. So, so he created this map of consciousness where basically he talks about lower consciousness where people are stuck in the dark, heavy emotions. Then there is the middle, which is the intellect. It's reason, it's apathy, it's neutrality, all of that way you're not feeling a heavy emotion, but you're being very rational and intelligent.

52:43 And reason is the highest level of the middle. But as a as, as a culture, we have defined that as the peak. Reason is the peak. But in his research with many, many, many people, the highest levels of consciousness can actually come beyond reason, beyond the typical rational reason. And the, the first of those levels is love and not the typical love like romance or something, but like love consciousness. So it's, I don't want to go too deep into that. People can read about it. Then comes joy. And again, it's not just being happy because something is going well in your life, but it's true joy, which is unconditional.

53:23 So it's unconditional love, unconditional joy. And then comes peace. And peace, I believe in my experience is the self harmonizing level of consciousness. So when you are in peace or you are around someone in peace. So like I used to be someone who had no peace at all. It was the thing I was seeking the most. But today I have been told by many people I've become their beacon of peace. Like they've just like they come into my field and I just feel peaceful and even someone as normal as my builder. So, you know, this house is new. The guy who was building this house, he's a very normal Brazilian guy, like has nothing to do with consciousness. But he came and you know, he told me that there's just something like I just like working for you. I would even do it for free.

54:10 I would take a loss just to work with you because I feel good when I'm in your breath. Someone like that can can feel it. And I'm like, you know, it's not just about me. There's so many beacons of peace and love and joy. But when you're in that energy, when you're in that level of consciousness, that is where reality starts self harmonizing. Love, I believe is consciousness where healing takes place. Joy is a consciousness where your spirit starts awakening to your mission piece is where everything actually starts falling in place like a perfection. So and then there's stuff beyond that too. So yeah, it's it's about the level of consciousness that you're in.

54:52 If you're in reason, you're stuck thinking about problems. Reasoning is used to solve problems, so you'll only look at reality through the lens of problems. These are all the problems that need to be fixed. I need to use my intelligence to fix it. I need to fix it. I, I I, it's all I focus. The moment you come into Lovejoy and Peace, you're able to hold consciousness where reality starts self healing. And it's not. Again, it's not something people talk about a lot, but I can only say it from experience. Not just myself, but so many people healing in my presence and I'm not the only one. I'm a very small, you know, my field is very small right now. Like I'm working on growing it bigger and bigger. But there are people who have massive fields like Eckhart Tolle, like he's, he's a beautiful example of someone who holds consciousness and he does talk, but you know, it's, it's what's happening in his field.

55:42 Like people just go there and they feel things are improving. Sadhguru, there's so many teachers out there for doing it for millions of people. So would you liken that to what is often inexplicable when you walk into a room and you meet somebody and if you, if your radar is built the muscle at all, you say, well, I don't want to talk to that person anymore. You talk to somebody else and you feel good energy from them. It's unmistakable, right? If it if you're at all, you know, paying attention. You can be very rational, but if you have any sensitivity, if you have any intuition, which a lot of entrepreneurs do have, and they feel it, they know who are the right people. They know who are the wrong people. Like the, the, the, the best entrepreneurs know how to pick the right people.

56:30 They know how to drop the wrong people. They may not put it in these terms, but they know how to feel. You know, I think Joseph Campbell put it really well, is that the the invisible hand is the your intuition, right? So pay attention to it, right? And the more you pay attention to it, the better it gets, that sort of thing. And a lot of people would say what we're talking about is like, woo woo TO like, Oh, yeah, what are you guys talking about? You know, I, I want to say that my mission is, is focused on helping skeptics and cynics to some degree. Like I don't want to go into the two cynical who have no intention to awaken, but at least skeptics who want something.

57:13 But they don't want to go into the path of belief. They don't want to go into the path of normal spiritual practices like rituals or chanting or all of that. Like if you just want to experience higher conscious, but you and you have some openness for it, you can keep a skepticism. Like that's the people I'm focusing on. So you know, there is some talk of woo Hoo, maybe, but it doesn't matter what I'm saying. Like come and have the experience. You'll see how real it is. Fair, Sir, I was not the person who was saying all of these things 11 years ago, right? Like, I was not using this language at all. For me, intelligence was the most important thing. I was super like, I consider myself, you know, a genius programmer that I got all of the validation from my company.

57:54 I got my promotions and all of that. So like, that was the, the the thing for me is intelligence. Yeah. But. And there's so much more to life beyond that. And. So, So what? Why is it that you want to focus on the skeptics? Because I, I, I, I get them and, and I speak the language that can also relate to them. Like I, although, you know, we went into some vote of this on this in this conversation, but I still feel like someone who is holding their rationality and curiosity will want to experience it and see if it's true. Like, I'm not saying believe me, I'm saying come experience it. And I've seen that a lot of skeptics do respond to me like they, they, they, even if they, you know, I'm talking over, they kind of feel like I can trust him that he's not going to try and convince me about something.

58:47 It's not my intention. I don't want to convince you. I want you to await him. I want you to experience higher consciousness because it will free you from a lot of the darkness and the suffering that you're experiencing. Like I just know that from my experience. And you're on that note, I want to experience, I want to share what actually awakened me from my three-year depression. It was again, believable. So I went through this for three years. And the reason my depression was getting worse is like I said, you know, the, the, the, the my teacher and the work that we were doing was all focusing on healing and trauma. So like for those three years, I just kept diving deeper and deeper into my traumas and what is wrong and you know, then looking at the world and like apocalypse is coming and like I was actually in a very deeply apocalyptic mind state to the point I started holding stuff and like I was ready. I was ready for World War three to begin begin. It was.

59:41 And I know that that's happening even today for a lot of people, but I, I don't believe it's going to happen like that. That's the level I have come to now. But I was so bought into it and that was happening like 7-8 years ago. I was that was going to happen. I was so sure about. So, you know, obviously that becomes more and more depressing. And one morning I woke up, I opened the door to my house, to my house and I saw the sunrise and it's I felt my depression lift. I was just like, I can see the sun rising now. And that was it.

1:00:22 Like my light awakened again, like my, it was, it was just grace. Like there's no other way to explain it. Who heals depression by watching one son, right? Like what does, how do you explain the logic of that? But from that day, I have not entered into that kind of depression. And you know, there was, there was maybe some residual things coming up in the following months, but it was just a clearing out at that point. Like after that point, I've just been optimistic to the point that I've again, like I've become a beacon for people to to be and become optimistic. I could see how a sunrise would snap you out of it because it's miraculous, right? I hope you see that. Say, wait a minute, I'm here, I'm alive, I'm breathing, the sun's shining. I have food to eat.

1:01:09 There's people in my life that I love. Holy shit, what? Well, I have no reason to be depressed, right? And I know you could, but I know people when they're depressed, like for, for them to be hearing this and be like, yeah, I can look at a sunrise and nothing happens. I mean, I didn't look at so many sunrises, right? In those three years, I did witness many sunrise. And they did nothing to me. I, I was, I was again, I was living in the jungle, surrounded by beauty, surrounded by life. It did nothing to me for three years, but what happened on that one morning, I have no clue. But that's The thing is how can we facilitate grace? How can we get people into a into a state a level of consciousness like grace enters their life?

1:01:52 Like that's my work primarily now is, is I don't want to try and convince you of something. I want to get you into the state where Grace takes hold. Yeah, I think it's noble work. Can we talk a little bit before we wrap it up about the medicine, the, the plant? Thank you for helping me call it the right thing. So it's not really that simple. Like it's why it's really important to have not only somebody that's a good facilitator while you're experiencing ayahuasca, but someone who can cook up the medicine the right way. I don't mean to be crude about it, right? Yeah.

1:02:32 I mean, it's, it's quite an intensive process. It it, it takes about 24 hours if you're if you're preparing a big batch and it takes about 24 hours just to cook the brew itself. And like, you know, there's days of preparation before that to cut everything. It's very physically intensive. So the preparation, yeah, that's one thing. And, you know, especially when it's being done illegally and it's being transported illegally, a lot of like, because you cannot take big quantities, a lot of people then go and dilute it and maybe even mix it with other stuff to make it stronger. And you'll never know what you're drinking. Oh, yeah, it happens a lot, a lot.

1:03:12 So you don't even know if you're drinking, you know, the, the, the pure Iowasca brew or it's been mixed with something or it's been diluted and then you end up having no experience or you have a very light experience and you think that's ayahasca. But if you have real the, the well prepared Ayahasca, it is so strong. It's of course, everyone has their dose and you know, but some people they just need more. But again, with the right facilitator, they know how to find your dose. They know how to not give you too much, not give you too less. Make sure that you have a great experience. So there is, I, I would say like you, the most important thing for someone is that they need to interview the facilitator and ask them the right question.

1:03:56 One would be what's in your group, you know, has it been diluted? Has it been mixed with something? And also like, you know, there's so many other questions like what, like what's your outlook on the world? You know, what does healing mean to you? If you're talking about healing, what does healing mean to you? What is higher consciousness? What's the divine like? All because all of that is what you're going to be picking up in the ceremony. Like if you need help, how are they going to help you? What are they going to say to you? Are they trauma informed? Because you know, sometimes traumas can awaken in ayahuasca, but they can be trauma informed and then taking you deeper into healing or they can be trauma informed and they can be awakening your soul, right?

1:04:37 Or I don't feel like you need to ask question, you need to feel right that this is the right facilitator for you, that they're giving you real pure ayahuasca. So I don't know if that answers your question or. Yeah, No, no, I think it's because there's a, there's a, a gap between I'm going to do Ayahuasca and what it really is and the variety of ways you can experience it. Like you've just shared with us. Like it could be adulterated, it could be too weak, it could be all kinds of things, right. So. And then there's a setting, you know, so I, like I said, you know, I had a few people who drank in basements in New York or who drank just in someone's house because they managed to find iOS go online.

1:05:26 And one of the things with illegality, especially like I heard several people share about such an experience where they're afraid that the cops are going to bust in order, you know, the FBI is going to come and arrest them. And ayahuasca is an amplifier. So if you are afraid it's going to take your fuel 1000 times stronger during this, a lot like I've heard of a lot of people who become super paranoid during the experience. I've even heard of ceremonies which are even happening in South America where, you know, they, they don't really hold the ceremony and people are allowed to just wander off and like, you know, some of them get lost in the jungle. Some of them are around fire pits and they're like, they're dancing around the fire they can fall in. Like all kinds of things can happen. So like, there's a lot to be aware of and speaking to someone who's experienced.

1:06:17 So I am very open to speaking to people even if you don't want to have an experience with me, but you know, you just want guidance. You want something about finding the right place or you want a second opinion about something that I'm very open to just speaking to people. So someone watches this and you just want to reach out to me and ask questions. I'm very open to it. Of course, if you don't have an experience with me, ask me questions too, right? Like I've shared some stuff here, but you may have deeper questions, you have other questions. So I would say you're dealing with something very powerful. Be be aware of that. Ask questions. There's no shame in asking questions, even if you think that they're stupid or silly. Questions like you need to get the right information.

1:07:00 You need to really feel safe. It's very important. If you feel afraid, it's going to get amplified. If you don't trust the facilitator, you will get paranoid over the facilitator in the middle of the experience. How can they help you then? Yeah, yeah, that's right. Trust. Yeah. How did you discover? Was it an accident or on purpose? You're being trained as an apprentice. Did the person that you decided to get trained as it? Was it always the same person? Has it changed over time? How did you discern the right person to train you? I mean, it was just great because like I said, you know, in that second experience, I was shown my future and it happened to be at the very center where I was drinking the ayahuasca. And I think, you know, I, I personally have deviated from the teaching of that center and the, the teacher, like I said, because you know, of the focus on healing still has helped people and it helped me a lot.

1:08:01 But I would say my primary teacher was ayahuasca. And apart from the, the teacher I was working with, I have not had any other human teacher is primarily been Ayahuasca has been guiding the way for me. Like even throughout those eight years, I would say I mostly learn from ayahuasca. She was helping me a lot to, you know, hold space for me or teach me whatever she knows and her perspective. And while I took some of that on for some time, I would say a lot of it I have shared and I've just mostly retained what I was, has taught me and given. Me. Yeah. Super helpful, fascinating. Yeah. I'm really glad we did this.

1:08:42 And I think if it's OK with you in a couple months we'll do it again because there's A and I have 1000 more questions and it's curiosity. It's not anything other than that. And of course I've had some plant based experiences. So I have, you know, a basis of understanding on some of this stuff. So it's super fascinating. Would it be OK if when I sent this out to everybody that we shared contact information for you or like a link? Yeah. Like I said, you know, I want people to reach out to me. So I am there on LinkedIn primarily that's the the social media website that I use the most.

1:09:23 I'm also there on other platforms like Instagram, but mainly like if you want to communicate with me, it's either LinkedIn or my website whichistheinfinite0.com. And you know, maybe we could go into the story of why the infinite zero, why my name is Theo now instead of. Actually, I was going to ask you that question because I know at least a dozen people who I know kind of well and not so well, who have had experiences and awakening, let's just call it, and you immediately know and half of them have changed their first name. So I. Yeah. And it's fascinating.

1:10:03 But yeah, let's do that another time if that's OK with you, 'cause I wanted a question, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, so my website is there, which also has my e-mail. My LinkedIn is that you can probably also drop it into the description. So it's. Easier. Totally. The infinite0.com or if you search for TO Rohan even on LinkedIn on Google you will find that's TO with a 0. Yeah, with the TO, with the zero, I love it. Yeah. So thank you for doing this. Really, really appreciate it. It's, it's been wonderful. It's a powerful conversation. I hope it reaches as many people as possible. I'm going to be sharing it because I just feel like there's a lot of power in the and yeah, it's, it's my pleasure to have this conversation with you, to have more conversation with you, and to have conversation with people who see this and are inspired to reach out. Yeah, if it's OK with you, I'd love to do this again shortly. Actually, yeah.

1:11:01 Thank you everybody for being here. Thank you, Teo. Thank you.