Why Wealth Alone Doesn't Create a Lasting Legacy | Angelina Carleton

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (00:00.192)
flag in the picture. Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Arthur's Roundtable. We're super happy to have Angelina back for a second time. and we we have her back for a second time because we weren't able to talk about everything we wanted to talk about in the first round. So we are going to start with her the beginning of her journey and then talk about her business and it's related to family offices and

Family office adjacent content. And so we're super happy to have you all with us today and Angelina back with us again. So thank you, Angelina.

Angelina Carleton (00:40.295)
pleasure to be here. So for the origin story, like I shared last time, but happy to share again. I got into this business after I graduated from Penn State. I had worked in real estate as a commercial real estate broker and wearing different hats. I also understand mortgages and appraisals. And I came across a number of clients and realized that they were chasing the deal, but there was not anyone to help them with their legacy. And at that time, I didn't realize that.

there may have been a void in the marketplace. I just saw a need in just talking with clients. In other words, they're racing to accumulate and they have all of these assets, but then there's this question of, well then then what? Or if there has to be a succession, are all of the different questions related to meaning as well as I mean, wealth is so holistic. I mean, even regarding their happiness and joy, it's not just how well do you perform on a mouse wheel, even though

I think in life, oftentimes we're trained that way in school, or if you've worked at a company like Goldman Sachs or even a commercial brokerage firm, et cetera. It's about an ROI, and I'll also speak about ROI later on regarding legacy planning. But I think that was something that came to the forefront in 2011 and twelve. And I thought, well, surely there is someone in the marketplace that can help someone like Arthur, for example, design a legacy or even a next gen heir or a widow or a widower.

And as you can imagine, back in 2011 and twelve, I went to the internet and I could find coaches and consultants that could help a person lose weight, stop smoking, double their income. And at that time I was, gosh, probably in my yeah, I would have been in my 30s then, early 30s. And so I was not necessarily at a retirement age, but I still asked the question in terms of what's called backwards planning and business, who can help me? And I couldn't find someone. And so it was a bee in my bonnet.

For a couple of years. And then in 2014, I sold enough commercial real estate that I was able to go back to school with the coactive training institute. And I took a year off. I did all of their programs, executive education, everything. Mm-hmm. So the coactive training institute works with Harvard University, et cetera. And all coactive means is doing and being. So there's a part of us that is productive, like what we do each day, but then there's a part of who do we be.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (02:44.609)
Hey wait, hold hold hold on. What is that? Tell us what that is.

Angelina Carleton (03:01.917)
Which is also very interesting when you talk about the legacy conversation, because as one's wealth grows, it becomes, I think, less about what one does because you can retain people to do those things. That the conversation then expands to, well, who do we want to be when it comes to things like alignment versus control or even the preparation of heirs, or even if you're designing a legacy vision and whatever that vision is, who do you have to step into being?

And then who is who is there to have those conversations with you? To hold up a mirror, but also accountability to say, okay, if you have a value around freedom with that flag in the background, for instance, well, who do you get to be when you're expressing the value of freedom? And if you leaned into it more, who who is that person? Who are you being? Because it's a it's a different energy that somebody embodies or takes on.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (03:54.734)
So that's interesting that there wasn't somebody like you aspired to be, let's say, readily available on the internet, but there was an academic construct for that. That's kind of interesting, isn't it?

Angelina Carleton (04:00.127)
Mm-hmm.

Angelina Carleton (04:08.917)
it is. And I'm gonna talk about that if I can during our hour together today. Yeah. so there are people and I have found them in the last decade. and so there are advisors that help with that. Now, do I think that there's enough advisors? No, I don't, because one of the difficulties and you work with family offices is let's say that ninety-nine percent of capital that gets deployed is in financial due diligence, and one percent is in family retreats and personal coaching and family council meetings.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (04:13.762)
sure, yeah, yeah.

Angelina Carleton (04:37.117)
And yet if we look like, I don't know, if we look at a family like the Rothschilds, for instance, the Rockefellers, whoever, I mean, Bern Bernard Arnott, he's the founder of the L VMH, et cetera, et cetera. you know, these are some families that they get their children engaged. But to many family offices, if they go to their client that's a wealthy family, a founder, whoever, and they say, We'd like you to invest in family retreats and personal coaching once a week, probably the answer is gonna be great, what's the ROI?

Is there a database that I can lean into if I'm going to set aside my time, my asset of time to invest into personal coaching or family council meetings? Now, do we know that the Rothschilds have done very well? And again, I'm just putting them on the spot. They're not the only family, but they have survived, I mean, 15, 30 generations. I don't know the exact number, but you talk about this idea of like, okay, it doesn't make it past three generations. Well, why? Because you have to invest in human capital.

But if you're gonna invest in human capital, the who was out there? Have they made a strong enough argument? I don't like the word argument, a strong enough point, offered enough evidence that sure, sure, to to have I mean, I think you work with what, fifty, a hundred family offices and they've got clients.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (05:44.151)
Business case, right?

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (05:53.194)
Yeah. I mean it's a lot more than that, but I I obviously don't personally get involved with that many, but you know, we have thirty two hundred family offices that are members of FOI. It's big. and of course I don't have thirty two hundred friends. Yeah, I've got a handful. But I I get your point, yeah.

Angelina Carleton (06:12.297)
So so so how I got into that was that I saw that there was like just a need. Now there are advisors out there and I think there's wonderful positive role models. Jay Hughes, he was a an an attorney. He's the son of an attorney. He's worked as the wealth advisor to the Rockefeller, I think it was the Rockefeller family. And and but he's he's very in touch with human capital. And I think that that's what legacy planning really is. You have to invest in the human capital.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (06:39.575)
Yeah, his his book was lauded it I don't know which one, but as sort of the bible of all this, right?

Angelina Carleton (06:46.025)
Well, I have this book over here. I said I shared with you, I'm at my cabin right now, and over on my glass coffee table over there is this book about telemachus. And it's this idea of well, why do heirs disengage? Well, 'cause they gotta go find their identity. They gotta go on that journey like telemachus and just they can't have their identity based on the family's wealth. I think you're a self made success, if I recall correctly.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (07:08.439)
Well, we some would argue success, right? whatever that is defined at. But no, I was there was no legacy. My father worked in a paper mill, you know, and my ancestors were from Greece and they came over and started grocery stores like and didn't expand into like Christities in New York City, for example, but they owned a grocery store and a butcher shop and on one side of the family and my other side of the family worked in paper mills. There was no family office legacy type

money never mind thought about that. Yeah. No, I just I decided this is not about me, but the the the inflection point for me was when my father got fired from a job at fifty five and it just crushed him. And so I always I just said I'm never gonna have somebody take my name off the door. So it's been, you know,

Nothing's ever been easy for me, but you know, at the end of the day I've had massive losses and massive successes and I'm ahead. So it's good.

Angelina Carleton (08:19.379)
Good, good. Yeah, I I I let me circle back to that moment in time. So I I would have thought that you would have hunkered down and focused in terms of the work ethic and the skills. You know, one of the I I I I sent you some some you know and and I don't know if I should bring them up now or if I should just let you leave. Okay, you know. Okay. Well, I I wrote to you financial capital is the easiest to transfer. So how do you transfer and protect the other?

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (08:35.723)
Yeah, I appreciate that. Sure, sure, bring up, yeah, yeah. What whatever whatever you're comfortable with, yeah.

Angelina Carleton (08:49.001)
forms of capital. And there might be individuals that are listening that'll say, well, what are the other forms of capital? And it's emotional and it's human capital and intellectual and spiritual capital. Because let's say I'm again I'm just making this up, okay? Let's say you have $10 million. It's just a number for easy math. Okay. And I presume you might have children. And let's say you pass that to your children. Okay, great. You have three children. So how do you transfer as well as protect that capital? And a part of that answer is

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (08:55.746)
Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (09:11.477)
Look, yeah.

Angelina Carleton (09:18.515)
The children have to be interested. They have to be engaged. But the parents also have to be engaged. Like if I go back to the example of Bernard Arnault with LVMH, he's got all five children sitting at that dinner table every night. And they're all heads of whether it's Louis Vuitton or Sephora or Fenty Beauty, etc. So he has his children engaged, but also it could bring up well if the children have it too good. Well, if you are watching what happened to your dad and his name got taken off the door or

whatever the exact details are, whoo, then maybe you didn't have it so good. So you're a little bit hungrier and you're willing to work for it compared to heirs that maybe have not had to work so hard or are not as hungry or is not as humble. And then all of a sudden you say, Well, I'm gonna bestow financial capital of $10 million your way. And if they say, What now I gotta work? Now I gotta grow.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (10:13.835)
I think it's I think this is all super interesting because not unlike other things, the solution is not one that you can just apply to every fact pattern. It's idiosyncratic a function of the fact pattern, right? So in my case, while I I don't want to make it sound bad, my kids had a great I upbringing.

Angelina Carleton (10:18.567)
Mm.

Angelina Carleton (10:42.685)
Mm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (10:43.435)
It was amazing. They think it was amazing. The lifestyle was, you know, super upper class. They traveled well. They got a good experiences. They went to good schools. They played sports. They got in enrichment in their lives. They were safe all the time. They knew they were. but they have I've chosen to even though they're pretty clear that there's a pot at the end of the rainbow, they've gone on to

create their own personas in their own lives. And it's I also will gladly throw in because I got divorced at some point, depending on the age of you know, you know, my son was like 13 and my daughters were a little older. I think that whole process created such resilience

Angelina Carleton (11:14.761)
Which is great.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (11:40.106)
And the ability to adjust to change and have that skill set in their life going forward. I think many people think divorce is a bad thing for kids. I think it was awesome for my kids. and they think so too. but change happens and you build that muscle, right? and so they're they're have been aside from ending up being New York City kids for you know post-college.

Angelina Carleton (11:53.331)
Because change happens.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (12:08.939)
They knew exactly how to fake left, go right. Okay, don't get upset about that. Let's figure out how to pick I mean, they've they've they became really, really resilient humans. Yeah. So, like I said, had they been in a position where I said, Okay, here's ten million bucks a piece to go build businesses, that would be different, right? I s well I I was I I l I just want to be clear to the audience and you.

Angelina Carleton (12:17.704)
Hm.

Angelina Carleton (12:27.635)
I think you were engaged. So

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (12:35.699)
I was very fortunate when I got divorced. I was a bachelor for 20 years. And what I mean by that is this people aren't going to like this, but I'm going to it anyways. I didn't have the encumbrance of a wife or a regular girlfriend or whatever you want to call it, partner, that got in the way for in many ways, would have gotten the way in many ways while my kids were living with me in New York City.

for all that time, right? And then they of course they went out on their own. But my focus was just to hang out with my kids while they were adults. And so there was nobody tugging on me to distract me from that. And we all benefited.

Angelina Carleton (13:12.915)
Mm.

Angelina Carleton (13:20.095)
So you got to mentor, guide, and groom them in the positive ways of survival. Mm-hmm. And I still think adults adult children need guidance. I don't think it's just eighteen and good luck you're out there. Cause it's like

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (13:24.193)
Yeah. Yeah, as adults, which was awesome. Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (13:31.178)
no. just no doubt about that. On the other hand, what you were saying about, for example, the Rothschilds or Arno, did you see the episode of Landman where Jerry Jones from the Cowboys was sitting by the bedside of one of the primary anyway, the it's really an epic episode and this segment was how

This guy had built this massive oil empire. And Jerry Jones was one of his friends. Jerry owned Jones owns the Cowboys. And this guy was about to die on the hospital bed, or could die. And he was, you know, running through walls and driving hard and creating heart attacks. And Jerry said, Look, the biggest thing in my life that mattered to me is that while I was also running through walls and building massive oil business and buying the cowboys.

My kids were part of the business the entire time. And that was his legacy is he said, I I prospered because they were with me. Right. So it was it's a it's a very moving scene. Good one. I would. It's great. It's a great show also. I mean the epic. what's his name? Taylor Taylor, whatever. He did the Yellowstone and all that.

Angelina Carleton (14:37.491)
Hmm.

Angelina Carleton (14:43.263)
I'll have to check it out. So

Angelina Carleton (14:58.601)
So so I think what you're speaking to is that experience matters. So, like with that wealth transfer right now, and then I'm gonna tie it back to legacy. I think that if you can have your children in the business, then you're giving them real life experience because real life is hard. Business is hard. There's surprises every day. In fact, I think I emailed something to you of like about surprises. Cause there's a the surprises we can handle, and then there are the surprises that test our metal. Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (14:59.021)
Good job.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (15:26.603)
Yeah. True. Yeah.

Angelina Carleton (15:28.637)
So so I so if I go back to this idea of, you know, what what do I think you as well as your audience might want to hear about or if I could offer any value, I just think about, well, how do you create engaged heirs? How how do you make sure that they're gonna be successful? And then if the answer is transferring as well as protecting the other forms of capital, well then how do you do that? And a part of it is like you said, okay, well, you spent time with your children, whether they were teenagers or adults.

So a part of that is the discussions. Well, if they're at the dining room table and you're having meals with them, spending weekends with them, walking next to them in Central Park or wherever, then then it's that time where you can talk about things. Well, the marriage was tough, it didn't work out. And now here's how we rebuild. The marriage was tough, and now I am finding my own identity. Okay, great. I mean, these are the real life things that need to be talked about. And the other part is, and I and I've I plugged the hardcover coffee table book as much as I can.

if you can distill any of this in writing. So there's, I mean, I think that your peer network, the Family Office Insights, is kind of a database. That's my presumption. So it's like you can learn from, you know, I call it institutional memory in the sense of whether it's a trust or a peer-to-peer network, et cetera. It's I've made mistakes and here's how I dealt with them. So future generations don't have to make the same mistakes. And so I think similarly when you're walking with your kids in Central Park, you know, and you reflect and then you talk about it.

And then I just hope one day that you write it down or they write it down or someone writes it down.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (17:00.385)
Yeah, it's germane to the subject, but I'm gonna go off the rails a little bit here, but it's it applies to legacy as well. In this community that we have, the number one thing by a huge margin is somebody who wants to talk to somebody else that has had the same problems that they have. How did they solve it?

Angelina Carleton (17:25.639)
Mm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (17:29.395)
And it's not that the advisors that can help solve that problem aren't valuable. It's just that if you're sitting across the table from somebody that's built and exited a business and now has a billion dollars and they were throwing a curve for something, and I've got the same problem that I'm about to engage to solve, I'd rather talk to, and it's the number one thing that the family office

people that I talk to say to me is that they want to talk to somebody and say, How did you solve that problem? Or how did you deal with this challenge? Or how and that conversation is the most valuable conversation that for as long as I've been involved in all this still continues to be the number one thing. So in the context of what you're saying is, okay, as a

Angelina Carleton (18:02.793)
Mm-hmm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (18:25.643)
mother, father, or whatever. we have and parents often get ignored because they're parents, but how did you through your life, dad, mom, deal with this challenge? So if you can engage your your offspring to ha help them understand how you dealt with these so they I know how to deal with them, it's the same thing, right? I think.

Angelina Carleton (18:51.135)
Yeah, yeah, you're speaking principle to principal is what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah. So I think that's valuable. So let's say I I'm sitting across from you, principal to principal, and I say, I'm going through this scenario. I've heard you've also gone through the similar scenario. Tell me everything. And then you have that download compared to if there's a third party that interprets, you know, what it was like to walk in your shoes and everything you did down to the nuance. Because I think that's important. The internal conversations that you had in your head.

the external decisions that you made. Now having said that, I wouldn't necessarily throw the baby out with a bath water and I'm gonna advocate for all advisors and coaches in this world.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (19:27.691)
No, that's why I said that they're super valuable, but they're not as valuable as that other person. At least that's been my experience. They they're they're required, they're valuable, they're really important, but they're they're not as valuable on this continuum of being valuable.

Angelina Carleton (19:37.321)
Yeah.

Angelina Carleton (19:50.889)
They're a great plan B. Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (19:52.949)
Yeah. Well, or to to integrate into this, right?

Angelina Carleton (19:57.171)
Well, I think that it like I think a team is needed. So people talk about this great wealth transfer. Okay, that's great for all of your neighbors and friends, but if it's when it's personal to you

I think people need teams because you look at the numbers and the t the statistics and you ask the question of why aren't the statistics higher regarding success rates? And I think a part of it is that learning curve of do you have the best people around you? Do you add the right people to your team? Do you know who to ask? Do they keep asking? Do they tap their networks to find people that can give you those answers? Cause at the end of the day, there are the financial problems, but then there's also the human problems. And that's the complexity of.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (20:36.927)
Well, let's let's c I I again I'm this is not about me and I'm just giving you my two cents for to catalyze the conversation.

Angelina Carleton (20:43.539)
Well please, because it's gotta be relevant and someone's gonna r relate to you your your experiences.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (20:48.065)
Well, it's it's like the reason why there's so many people around to help you with the financial problems is because there's money. You're at the crossroads of money. There's a way to get paid. The other stuff, there's not a cross section of money necessarily. In other words, I can help you pick stock pick your stocks because I'm gonna get paid. There's a metric there that I can apply to

Angelina Carleton (20:58.609)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (21:17.899)
glean revenue from that transaction as it relates to the value I'm providing. The other stuff is harder to apply some sort of, you know, fee associated to it because there's not money exchanging, right? There's not a transaction happening.

Angelina Carleton (21:19.039)
Mm-hmm.

Angelina Carleton (21:35.583)
Are you talking about that that if somebody doesn't pay a facilitator or they don't pay a fee for that family retreat?

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (21:41.472)
No, no, I'm just saying no, I'm just saying that in the facilitation process there isn't a money transaction that's gonna fund an advisor to do the work. You know, when you're doing no no no, I'm not no no no no I'm not saying that you shouldn't get paid. You're d I I want to make sure. No, I'm talking about if you're at work.

Angelina Carleton (21:47.187)
Mm-hmm.

Angelina Carleton (21:56.831)
Well they have call people like me or other advisors or Jay Hughes.

Angelina Carleton (22:05.212)
Are you talking about the ROI?

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (22:11.167)
Money is being one a stock is being bought, a stock is being sold, that's a money transaction. And so well, you can see the evidence. Plus, there's there's money there to to to scrape off and get paid for what value you're bringing. The on the other hand, there's when you're doing a facilitation and a conversation, there's money changing hands for your value. I'm not saying that that's not happening.

Angelina Carleton (22:14.673)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, you can see the evidence is i it's measured.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (22:40.919)
But it's not a money transaction.

Angelina Carleton (22:42.744)
It's harder to measure.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (22:45.439)
It's harder to measure and it's because that there's not money being exchanged as part of the transaction, meaning it's not about money, it's about something else, right? That's all I'm saying.

Angelina Carleton (22:52.211)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so I've I'm ready with a metaphor for that. Okay, so rest and relaxation. How much do you spend on rest and relaxation? And is there a measurable number of how much better you feel or so I mean I could have rest and relaxation, vacation, longevity, you left for a week to the Bahamas and afterwards you feel refreshed, recentered.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (23:01.389)
Do it.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (23:16.417)
Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (23:21.921)
Yes, and you can do that, meaning you can assign a number to that if you're paying attention, right?

Angelina Carleton (23:26.909)
Yeah. So I do think the ROI is trickier, but I do think about families if I go back to the Rothschilds for a moment that they have invested in their people versus things. And I think that's a really tough place where somebody gets to of if I keep investing in the human capital, is there the output that I need or what does that look like or what is it that I need to see? And sometimes you might not even have a problem child. I mean, if there's disagreements, okay, well then that could fuel it.

But there's still, I think, a proactive investment into the human capital.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (24:02.803)
I I don't think there's any doubt about that when when you if you in your practice and in others, if you take a family that hasn't invested in human capital and then they decide that they're going to, and you fast forward three or four or five years to whatever it is, there's a obvious benefit to this. There's no question about it, right? I've seen it time and time again. Yeah.

Angelina Carleton (24:16.946)
Mm-hmm.

Angelina Carleton (24:30.089)
So tell me about some of the things that you mentioned a moment ago that parents are invisible. Cause I think there's something to be said, if there's a database when it comes to picking the right stocks or financial due diligence or these were the deals that were smarter, I went with cryptocurrency, I did not go with cryptocurrency, et cetera. But then what about the database when it comes to human experiences? Like sometimes people call that policies and procedures if there's a trust, which basically just means something went wrong and here's how we dealt with it.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (24:58.551)
Yeah. Yeah, I don't I don't I don't know that that exists, does it?

Angelina Carleton (25:04.047)
Maybe with Rothschild family it exists, or certain families or the Bernard Arno

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (25:06.881)
Yeah, really.

Yeah. What I was referencing is that somebody a long time ago, while I was bringing up my kids, gave me some wisdom that paid off. It was what how you say things to your kids, it seems obvious, is important, is as important as what you say to them. So when you know they're going to do something and the and the and it's probably not a good idea, rather than saying don't do that.

Angelina Carleton (25:34.761)
Mm-hmm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (25:37.772)
Because they're predisposed to not listen to their parents, oftentimes. Right. As he said, you start with this. You say, You're not gonna believe me. So now they're listening because they don't believe you. It's if you do that, it's very likely to end up like this. So go ahead and do it if you want. But so it was actually a very clever trick.

Angelina Carleton (25:41.535)
Yeah.

Angelina Carleton (25:51.155)
Yeah.

Angelina Carleton (26:02.003)
Yeah.

Angelina Carleton (26:06.355)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (26:07.377)
And it worked and I still do it to this day. And my kids said you my kids say, Well, you're doing it again, Dad. So it's it's the the trick is you're not gonna believe me. And then now they're listening, as opposed to say, don't do that, and they don't listen, right? It's kind of childish, but it's it it actually Yes. Yeah.

Angelina Carleton (26:20.211)
Mm-hmm.

Takes the pressure off. Yeah. Yeah. I think one of the questions I sent to you was a around like why do heirs disengage? Why do families fragment? And a part of that is also that you have to invite other people into the conversation. So I think even when you say to your children, Hey, you're not gonna believe me, it's it's it's not like you're asserting control. So I came to this conversation with a metaphor, and the metaphor has to do with

And and I think you were probably a very fair parent in the sense that you may have not exerted control. I think you probably offered guidance, but there are some families that exert control 'cause it works. And the metaphor that I brought was, you know, about herding cats. Have you ever tried to walk a cat? And then and then if you put a harness on a cat but now you're dragging the cat.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (27:09.697)
Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (27:14.561)
Right. Yeah. Yeah, it's a challenge. There's huh how many people have you met that fall in the camp of not knowing that they're

w wildly narcissistic.

Angelina Carleton (27:40.383)
Okay, I may call that wildly wounded. Keep going. Okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (27:43.885)
Okay, wound that's true. There there's the healing problem, right? And until they decide that they want to do something about that, it's kind of hopeless.

Angelina Carleton (27:55.655)
And they rarely do, if they're a truly a narcissist, okay?

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (27:57.996)
Yeah. Yeah. So how do you deal with that matriarch or patriarch that is a massive not self evident narcissist, healed non healed person? How do you is there a way of getting that person to invest in the people and decide to have a

Angelina Carleton (28:14.28)
Mm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (28:27.937)
Do the work to have a legacy so people can understand how to be engaged with the family.

Angelina Carleton (28:34.761)
So it would come down to what motivates him or her. Because if it's an heir, you could use money to motivate that heir. But if you're talking about the patriarch or the matriarch and they're the money person, should I do anything with the timer at the top? no, I'll just ignore it. Then it just showed up. Sorry about that. Okay. so I think it comes down to if it's an air, you could offer money and that could motivate them. depending on if that works or not. A lot of times it works, it's the carrot on the stick.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (28:53.857)
Yeah. Yeah, that's what that happened.

Angelina Carleton (29:04.401)
It's the reward. But if you have a patriarch or a matriarch, you know, what else could motivate them? Cause even with narcissists, narcissists can actually be very easy to control because many times they're motivated by shame.

And that's not necessarily w I'm not saying to go in and manipulate them. I'm just suggesting that when you take kind of a a take a step back and you look at what motivates them, it might surprise, like sometimes fear motivates someone. And again, I'm not saying to to to be ruthless with them, but if you go back to the cat, food could motivate a cat compared to punishment. So with narcissists, there of there's often been a a moment or moments plural.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (29:41.985)
Mm-hmm.

Angelina Carleton (29:48.583)
in their life where somebody whipped away their power and they felt powerless and now they've developed a mask to overcompensate. And that mask could be, as you've probably come across in business and I've come across in business, it could be really malignant. It could be very cunning and dark. Like the fr like here's the front side of business and here's the back side of business. And if you've been in business long enough, you've seen the front and you've seen the back side of business. You know, the good side and the ugly side, the light side and the dark side. So I bring that up because with narcissists

depending again on what motivates them, you can lead them if you figure out what's their food, like going back to the metaphor of the cat.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (30:29.719)
Yeah. Or is it better to just cut and move on to the next client? Right. So yeah.

Angelina Carleton (30:39.431)
Yeah, so I'm gonna say yes and no. So a lot of experts will say, go no contact with a narcissist. And sometimes you can, and sometimes that's the best. But here's the reality. We swim in these waters where we are surrounded by narcissists today. I think that there was, you know, it was one of the earliest guests on my podcast. He was from I want to say Brazil, somewhere in South America. I can't place it right now. And he talked about narcissism being this influence of leadership in the twenty-first century. And many narcissists are at the top of their industry.

Because what allowed them to be good is that they are running from this shame of I am not good enough. And they will become the Titans of Wall Street or they'll become the founder or they'll become that entrepreneur and they will be amazing salespeople. Because again, they're getting driven by a fear and a shame we can't see on the outside. Cause they're they might become they they could come across as like the life of the party.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (31:31.924)
Often do, yeah.

Angelina Carleton (31:32.403)
Yeah, often do. And so if if we're talking about this idea of a legacy

I think some of them will have what I might call a a come to Jesus moment when they get closer to their death because sometimes narcissists, the older they get, the more isolated that they become, because people don't want to put up with their hot air, their drama, their being a pain in the beep.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (31:59.354)
And they're not as capable as they once were as they get older to execute on their horror.

Angelina Carleton (32:08.543)
Sure, sure.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (32:10.857)
Yeah, right.

Angelina Carleton (32:12.147)
So I I mean I could and I'm not gonna make this like necessarily a political conversation, and I'm I'm I'm not registered to vote. I don't go to rallies or protests, so I'm just gonna say that up front. But there are some politicians and that are narcissistic and they're I think they

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (32:26.86)
Some

Angelina Carleton (32:29.021)
Well sure. Sure. And and so I I think again that there is a skill set to be developed because we swim in waters where narcissists are not going away. So then how do you do that dance to get what you need, but also not get sucked into the vortex? And I bring up the vortex because and here's another metaphor. Like let's say the planet Jupiter has a lot of mass and I'm a smaller planet, like

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (32:29.581)
Some the

Angelina Carleton (32:57.407)
Pluto or something like that. I Pluto's still a planet, I'm not sure. It's how well do I know myself that I if I get around Jupiter? And sometimes narcissists can have big, gigantic personalities. A showman or a showwoman or whatever. What what is it that I need to know about myself before I go into that landscape, that battle where I'm around Jupiter and I don't get sucked in?

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (33:09.047)
Mm-hmm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (33:21.889)
Yeah. Self-awareness. So I wanna just it does work both ways. So I have a book that I'm gonna just mention that I read because I was often surrounded by narcissistic people and still am. and so someone recommended a book and it's not written by

Angelina Carleton (33:25.875)
Because I'll know my buttons if I know theirs. I'm just saying it works both ways in s in in self knowledge, sorry.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (33:48.512)
a clinician or a doctor. It's written by a self-proclaimed narcissist. It's called malignant self-love. And it was brilliantly written. and it actually helped me deal with those people but not getting sucked into their orbit, right? Is really a the the preface of the book is if you meet somebody that has these characteristics and it basically

Angelina Carleton (33:54.855)
Mm.

Angelina Carleton (33:59.571)
To check it out.

Angelina Carleton (34:04.807)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Angelina Carleton (34:14.334)
Mm-hmm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (34:17.363)
It's hopeless, walk away. That was the beginning of the book, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course they do. Yeah. Now I say of the course they like these, yeah.

Angelina Carleton (34:20.383)
Well, that's the easy thing. And people like in terms of polarity, they like the easy, which is also why I design it. Sorry, go ahead.

Angelina Carleton (34:30.761)
Well that's why even if you go back to you spoke about communication a while ago, that you said to your children, Well, you're not gonna believe this. Well, if if let's say you go to up to a founder and they're really successful, we're talking millions of dollars and money like success and failure are amplifiers. It's just gonna make them more of who they are. Now, whether or not you say that to their face is another thing. You know, there's some moments where you have to have the inside voice. But I I bring that up because in some ways you're asking them to continue to grow. So if they

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (34:37.484)
Yeah.

Angelina Carleton (34:59.047)
instead of bossing their children around under control, and I go back to that idea of the cat on the harness, you're dragging the kid because you put the kid on the harness. And the kid could be fifteen, twenty-five, thirty-five, forty-five, etcetera. Fifty-five even, 'cause parents still sometimes see their children as thirteen forever. Right? Yeah. So so I I I I bring up that point because yeah, I I yeah, I I w I just lost it for a moment. It was on the top of my mind.

that they have to in terms of the growth mindset, that they still have to be willing to grow. And I'm not asking them to carry around a tape recorder. But if you say to them, listen, you are really successful, but now you have to learn you have to look at your communication skills. You have to humble yourself enough to invite your child into that conversation. So that gives them the freedom. And then

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (35:51.629)
That's a good point. Yeah.

Angelina Carleton (35:53.747)
But let's say you're you're narcissistic, for example, and I I say to you, you gotta work on your communication skills. The first reaction is gonna be defensiveness, rebellion, I don't wanna change. I mean, I I could even bring up if someone is spiritual, growth is a little bit easier. If they're not if they don't have a sense of a spiritual life, there's something called the ego based intellect. And people can get really set in their ways as the decades progress. Well, it's worked this this long.

This well for this long. And now you're asking me because the world is faster, people now have opinions, and my children are now rebelling. Yeah. Yeah. So I I bring up that point because a moment ago, you know, the that book said, just walk away. Well, people love black or white, left or right. you know, they they love simple. And and so if humans love the easiest path.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (36:34.317)
Yeah, and we didn't have the internet for a long time, right?

Angelina Carleton (36:50.183)
Now you're asking, well, if if you were willing to sacrifice for your business and grow through the school of hard knocks, I mean when I'm saying growing, like you talked about massive losses, the type of losses where you go inside of your car and you scream type of losses because the world is unfair and somebody just took a piece of your stomach out because it's so you know, what they did was so selfish, it was borderline evil. Because that, you know, business is like, yeah, you add that comma or that zero and it's it crime is no longer walking down a dark alley and worrying about a baseball bat. Somebody just did something.

to you because you're sitting at the table and you didn't know something and they smiled and they, you know, added a comma or took away a comma and now you're dealing with the effects. And so, you know, I I'm bringing up that, you know, if you were willing to get back into the arena and work because you didn't want to lose that business deal or whatever that that business transaction was or your peer-to-peer network or whatever it is, it's are you willing to have that same commitment to have great communication skills?

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (37:46.625)
Yeah, that's a challenging question.

Angelina Carleton (37:48.851)
I go back to the reward, what motivates that person.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (37:52.046)
Yeah, find out. What's what's really interesting, and I imagine that you do a lot of this is w rather than tell people things, you ask them a bunch of questions. Right?

Angelina Carleton (38:02.823)
Yeah, 'cause then they their mind looks for the answer. And they yeah, and then they own it.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (38:07.244)
Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (38:10.633)
And and then it also reveals to you what you're hoping to find to help them. So let's talk about that a little bit. What what's the what do you find? I mean, let's just make the business case for what you're doing. What do you where do you find the best entry points for you to be engaged in a way that's meaningful for you and meaningful for your client?

Are is it is it the trusted estates lawyers? Is it directly from somebody else who's a a wealthy family that's experienced your business and and what you've done for them? What what's the sort of you know pedestrian, not pedestrian, but the basic business development type things that work for you?

Angelina Carleton (39:03.699)
Yeah, referrals are great. And ironically enough, there are people that have watched the podcast, my podcast, and they they will see the face of someone talking and then they'll decide in that moment, maybe after three videos, I don't know how how many, about whether or not they trust that voice or that face. And then they'll book a discovery session on my website. That's one way. And I thought, that's so interesting that somebody could watch a video and decide in that moment. And then other times there are referrals. And referrals are great.

Referral could come through an attorney. Referrals could also come from, like you had said, principal to principal. There could be an individual that is a rising gen member, and they can say, Well, I'm already working with someone, but my friend here, and then they refer their friend over to me over, like via email or something. And then that friend will come forward and say, I'm stuck, and here is where I'm stuck. And I and I always find it interesting how

How human it is in terms of that when there is a wealth transfer, for instance, there's like a new it's not just like they're being invited to a new identity. And like you had said, maybe their parents are invisible because why aren't they going to their parents? But maybe they don't go to their parents because they don't want to look weak or vulnerable or whatever their reasons are. But it's also it's like a brand new skill set. Like I'm now invited to be an entrepreneur. I don't know how to do that. How the heck do I do that? I don't know what I now want.

And I'm expected to know what I want.

Angelina Carleton (40:37.683)
So I think some sometimes it's it's the hunger on the part of the client. Cause it's like they're at a place in their life where they're going, Okay, shoot, I need some more help. Who do I go to? I I need to get some feedback because there's expectations on me now. And then there's other moments where, yeah, I think that there can be a referral through an attorney, let's say an estate attorney, and they could say, Well, I've got this client in my office and they're telling me about A, B, and C. I don't know how to help them. Can you help them? Or I don't want to

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (40:38.445)
That's it.

Angelina Carleton (41:05.744)
step outside of my lane of traffic, I'm really good here.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (41:09.173)
Yeah. I I I it's probably not a good example, but oftentimes when people go and see psychologists or s whatever to get some help, it's because the the argument is that there's somebody who doesn't have skin in the game. Like you can't go Yeah. and I think it's true in this case as well.

Angelina Carleton (41:29.279)
I think that's great. Sure.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (41:36.502)
I can talk to my business partner, I can talk to my husband, my wife, my parents, my siblings, other people on the advisory board for the family office or whatever, but they all have skin in the game in some way. And when people say they don't have a bias, it's a lie. We all have biases. We just don't reveal them all the time. and so with talk so talking with somebody like you.

Is you're getting paid to have an an independent view on a fact pattern that is not yours. That

Angelina Carleton (42:13.245)
Yeah, I I might amend that slightly to say I'm paid to add value.

Yeah. Which is and I'm sorry to interrupt you, but which is also why like when I emailed you on like, can you send your questions ahead time? Because sometimes there is this skill skill called dancing in the moment. And there's other times where if something's really important, you just don't dance in the moment. You'll go in prepared. So so that's where I go back to this idea of adding value. You just don't take someone's money. You look at like what is it that they're dealing with, you ponder it ahead of time, and then you go into that conversation and you say whatever you need to say to them. And we all know.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (42:18.443)
Yeah, fair enough. Yeah.

Right.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (42:35.489)
Yes.

Angelina Carleton (42:47.401)
Conversations never go as planned because new things come up. And then and then you can walk away from that and go, okay, well, this is how it turned out. And now I'm gonna email them or have a follow up phone call or whatever, and then say, you know, after conversing with you for an hour or whatever that 90 minutes or time frame is, I'd also like to add the following. So that's what I I might just reframe it a little bit. That I think the job of really good advisors and coaches is to add value and and to have our own database of like, okay, well, we've walked the floor.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (42:49.836)
Yeah, totally.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (43:11.841)
Yeah,

Angelina Carleton (43:14.931)
Regarding our life experiences, and here is what we've learned from the School of Hard Knocks, because that is what life is.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (43:22.505)
Add value and also have no compelling reason not to be honest.

Angelina Carleton (43:29.021)
That is true. That is true. Yeah. I wanted

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (43:32.565)
Right. You're not hiding a secret agenda saying, Okay, I don't want to say that 'cause it's not gonna allow me to do this, right? 'Cause oftentimes when you're doing having a business conversation, it's about positioning and not bringing something up or it's lying through a mission. And I'm not saying lying, I mean you get my

Angelina Carleton (43:52.433)
No, no, but you're absolutely you're hiding something that maybe you're not going to say something to that other party, even if it could be to their benefit, 'cause you might not want want to offend them or

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (44:03.665)
Or you're using it as a negotiating chip later. Right?

Angelina Carleton (44:06.153)
Sure, sure, sure. One of the questions that I emailed you is what causes family fragmentation as well as why do family constitu constitutions fail? And and I'm just gonna say kind of a piggybacking.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (44:18.859)
I appreciate you say doing this because one of the things that I I know nearly we some we don't know we don't know. If there was a teleprompter in front of me, I would completely fail. Right. I can't do I just not capable of doing that. And so I appreciate you bringing up these questions because otherwise I'd look at them and just read them, you know, pedantically. Blah blah blah. Right. So I'm glad you're bringing them up.

Angelina Carleton (44:43.879)
Okay, good, good. I appreciate that you're willing to like allow me to like co co lead in this conversation. Okay Well, I so why do you know fa families fragment disagreement? One word. And then it's are you are you gonna deal with the disagreements or and disagreements mean sometimes I don't wanna listen to you.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (44:50.573)
Yeah, of course, yeah. It's your show.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (45:00.492)
Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (45:08.781)
Look, we have. Can we just call it what it is? The reason why family members don't get along oftentimes is because they have a history of behavior that you're I'm not gonna tell my sister this because I know based on my history and her behavior that that won't go well. So I'm just not gonna so

Angelina Carleton (45:35.517)
Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (45:39.413)
it it's it's a c you know your family has your most of the time they're you the biggest history with you.

Angelina Carleton (45:46.493)
Yeah, so I would add to that of disagreements. Sometimes it is rebellion. That's like when you went to your children, you're like, I know you're not gonna believe me, but so I would add to that that it's not necessarily selfishness when there's disagreements, but sometimes people will do the opposite whether it's justified or not. And 'cause we're just talking about human nature and the human condition. and so that brings my next point of well then those parents or if you're in a relationship with someone or that business meeting, you I'm gonna say

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (46:03.949)
Yeah.

Angelina Carleton (46:15.069)
You gotta deal with it. You gotta deal with the situation or situations. And here's the the next part. Or not. And sometimes people don't deal with it. And like you had just said, all right, well, that there's a history with that relationship with that sister or brother or or whoever it is. So did you deal with it? Well no, ten years went by, twenty years went by. I never gave them that gold star or told them that I was proud of them, or I never withdrew the insult that they looked bad in the khakis versus the blue jeans or or whatever it is. And it's yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (46:42.017)
Yeah. Yeah, it's fine.

Angelina Carleton (46:44.147)
So and and piggy back in on what you also just said, okay, why do family constitutions fail? It's like what you just said. People insert their own agendas.

Have they even read the constitution? Do they know what it means? Sec secondary to yeah. But they they insert their own agendas.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (46:59.66)
Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (47:03.149)
Yeah, if they're not bought into a family constitution, then they're not gonna, like you said, perhaps even read it and never mind adhere to it. Like they're gonna say, that's that's bullshit. I'm I don't yeah I don't I don't know what the hell they're talking about, but I'm just gonna keep on doing what I'm doing. Right. Yeah.

Angelina Carleton (47:15.273)
Correct.

Angelina Carleton (47:20.555)
Mm. That and are they equipped to follow it? That was the only other thing I wrote down regarding that. And and equipped could be skill sets, equipped could be buy in.

Angelina Carleton (47:35.859)
I know you're not gonna believe me, but I think it's still recording. Okay. I I know you're not gonna believe me, but and then you kinda draw in their buy-in.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (47:46.114)
Yeah. And, you know, the I think there's merit in knowing your family's history and how people tend to behave. And from time to time giving them the benefit of the doubt that they won't behave that way, giving them a chance to demonstrate that maybe they've thought things through a little differently.

And that they didn't do what you think they were gonna do just because that's the way they've handled it in the past. So you give some grace, right?

Angelina Carleton (48:22.899)
Mm. Yeah. And going back to the family constitution, or even like you had said, you know, in going forward and sharing notes principle to principle, I think there's something to be said about you know, are there agreed upon goals? Like we're gonna move forward as a family, you know, even if it's just yourself and your three children. Well, we've got some agreed upon goals, so you have what I call goals by agreement. 'Cause if not, it's we're all moving. Go ahead.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (48:50.401)
Buy all buy in, right? Buy-in, right?

Angelina Carleton (48:52.851)
Well, right. So l I'll I'll give an example. I don't know. L let's say for a moment that you had a house outside of New York City in the suburbs and you wanted one of your children to mow the lawn, but you didn't get their buy in. So they they they mowed it, but then they chopped down all your bushes because that's the rebellion. It's like, Okay, I'll do what you say, but

I might destroy your yard. Yeah. Right.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (49:14.229)
Right. Yeah, take that. Take that.

See that happen.

Angelina Carleton (49:23.135)
So I yeah, I just I yeah, so I I'll continue with some of these questions. Yeah. So I brought up to you in building a trusted community, which I think is what Family Office Insights is. It's that peer to peer network. You know, I wrote to you, what do you hope F O I still contributes fifty years from now? And it's that database. Go ahead.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (49:24.108)
Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (49:28.149)
Sure, please do.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (49:46.392)
Yeah, yeah, I don't think it will. I don't think it'll exist. I don't think it will make any contribution going forward, largely because and this is not it's just practical. It's like without me being active in it, there there might be like a a way to to work it into like YPO or

or Tiger 21 type thing, but I have no interest in doing that for a lot of reasons. And so I think that Family Office Insights community will end. But part of the business that we do will the will prosper and grow and may not be tagged as my legacy and I don't really care.

Angelina Carleton (50:17.191)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Angelina Carleton (50:24.34)
Mm-hmm.

Angelina Carleton (50:41.672)
Mm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (50:42.679)
because there's an exit in the offering for that part of it. There's a different so the peer to peer thing will evaporate over time or somebody will buy it.

Angelina Carleton (50:49.471)
Okay.

Angelina Carleton (50:53.085)
And take your spot?

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (50:55.849)
Yeah, and I I'm not saying I'm irreplaceable, I'm just saying the two components that are valuable to the community are the peer-to-peer thing and the deal flow. The deal flow can be built into a scalable business. The peer-to-peer thing would have to have somebody that would be really interested in digging in deep. And I just don't see it happen.

Angelina Carleton (51:23.561)
K

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (51:26.591)
And I don't really care. Like it I and and I and I have the benefit of not caring that much because I have f fifteen other things that are economically valuable to me that are, you know, family office insights went away tomorrow, it wouldn't change my life. And

Angelina Carleton (51:38.377)
Mm-hmm.

Angelina Carleton (51:46.055)
I think it's a contribution to society though.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (51:49.301)
Yeah. Not sure there is one.

Angelina Carleton (51:51.903)
I think in terms of education.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (51:54.732)
Maybe. I I will tell you that the content that we have on the podcast, let's just talk about that, which are very new and small, is huge in terms of wisdom from the guests. And that's already been demonstrated and it's it's far and away better and more valuable to people, it seems, than

The thousands of recorded pitch videos that we have on Family Office Insights of somebody saying, you know, we have a real estate fund and we're pitching this and you're gonna make money. Like that's okay, so what? Right. so I think these will have some lingering IP value. but we'll see.

So that could be some contribution to the side, but the fame the the thing that is valuable for the peer-to-peer stuff that happens is

I don't think it has lingering value except to the people that have benefited up to this point. Like the people they met, the business they've done together, the relationships that they enjoy, the traveling that they've been able to do with people that they've met as a result, the deals that can get done. So it has some maybe some societal benefit, but I don't think you're gonna be able to stand up family office insights and say, wow, what a

contribution to society it was I don't think that's a

Angelina Carleton (53:35.891)
Well, I think in terms of society, maybe behind the scenes, because it's a very niched market. and what I mean by that is if it's it's it's kinda like there's a loneliness epidemic in the world today. And then you go into a world and you add money to it, so now people have their guard up because they're worried, Well, what do want from me? But if you can create that peer to peer network and one principal goes to another principal

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (54:00.971)
Exactly.

Angelina Carleton (54:05.159)
And they say, I'm dealing with this, and it could be something heavy and serious, or it could be, I'd like to get some rest and relaxation. Where do you suggest I go? And they say, I I know this resort and it's amazing. Then it's something that then I think that in terms of it helped that person find their life force energy again, or it helped that person continue to learn and grow compared to just staying, you know, what I call like in invisible or living in a silent world of desperation or

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (54:34.645)
Yeah, yeah. I could tell you I can't I can't share specific examples of other people because it's not my place to do that. But for me, it's been hugely valuable. Let's just talk about in the the the example that you just used. I'm in Sicily. I I n I I know that a friend of mine has a place in Sicily. I didn't tell him I was going.

Angelina Carleton (54:34.985)
'Cause everyone wants to see heard and understood.

Angelina Carleton (55:02.407)
Mm-hmm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (55:04.255)
I say, hey, I'm in Sicily. He's from Luxembourg, but he has a place in Sicily. And I said, Hey, I'm in Sicily. Where should we go eat? Like, tell me where should we should go? And he goes, What? You're there? He didn't tell me you were going. here's where all the places you go. And the key to my place is with the handyman or whatever it is. Go and stay there as long as you want. Right? And not only that, the

Angelina Carleton (55:28.062)
Mm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (55:33.721)
Everybody that he has that helps him while he's there was helping us, right? Drivers, restaurants, places, food, the neighbor, right? All that kind of stuff. So that by itself was enriching to me, and that happens all the time, right? And so the other thing that is

Angelina Carleton (55:44.519)
Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (56:00.118)
I I like I'm resisting talking about this 'cause this is supposed to be about you or talking about me.

Angelina Carleton (56:03.613)
No, no, talk about you. And I was just gonna add, you just i it was joy. It was joy got manifested right there. That in is in it itself a legacy. Go go ahead.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (56:09.451)
Totally.

And and turns out this guy's like he looks like the Romanian mafia. He's a r half Romanian, half Italian. And you know, if you saw him, you'd run the other way because he's like six six or whatever he is. But he's the gentlest, nicest, smartest lawyer, you know, works for the one of the biggest REITs in the world. You know, he's just a solid dude. And he was part of the family office community, right? And so but the real value of family office insights to me.

Angelina Carleton (56:18.333)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Angelina Carleton (56:32.041)
Mm-hmm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (56:41.835)
And I've been criticized regularly for not monetizing more than I have, is that I don't have endless amounts of money. And so when I want to put $5 million into something and I only have two, I can rally three more, it's just easier than most. That's all. People take my call. So I've resisted taking that corpus of people, the relationships, the moneyed, smart investors and family offices. And

Angelina Carleton (56:54.889)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (57:09.309)
leveraging the shit out of it just to make money, right? I'm just not done. Yeah.

Angelina Carleton (57:10.441)
Mm-hmm. Mm hmm. Well that's good. Well well you're I would say you're trusted that you're not gonna just exploit something just because you can, based on of of greed. You know, just 'cause I could, I did. Maybe you shouldn't have had. Maybe you should have yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (57:24.375)
Yeah. Yeah. Well I I do exploit it, but in the way that I describe to you with full transparency, right? That's all.

Angelina Carleton (57:30.996)
Mm. Which is good. It there's a skill around self management. Some people if they

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (57:37.409)
Self that's what I tell my son, govern yourself. And he looks at me and goes, Yeah, sure.

Angelina Carleton (57:44.317)
Well, there w there's something about, perhaps past life experiences, seeing what your dad went through, that you're not gonna just take something for granted, that you'll cherish it, that you'll hold it in kit gloves, like when you stayed, I presumed, at your friend's place in Italy or wherever it was, that it if you did stay there, that you were very respectable or respected, you know, his space, his belongings. See, this is what I'm talking about, which is

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (58:08.139)
We always leave we leave it better than when we arrive. No

Yeah. It's the only way.

Angelina Carleton (58:13.373)
Something that I mean, I remember growing up and hearing that from my parents. Like wherever you go, whatever you do, leave it better. Does that next generation have it? I I'd like to think that they have it. I don't know. Was there someone in their ear saying, you know, leave it better, you know, be as respectable as possible?

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (58:30.078)
It's a good habit to have.

Angelina Carleton (58:31.763)
Yeah. Yeah. So I think a part of your legacy is that you didn't exploit it. Even if you could have, that you could have taken it

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (58:39.265)
No, not at all. No. Yeah.

Well, there's other facts, but it's largely because it didn't serve anybody well to to exploit it in that way, including the members, right?

Angelina Carleton (58:56.541)
I think and I'm gonna go back to and I know we might have to wrap up in a moment, but I I I remember back in commercial real estate, you're you were gonna bump into the same people again. And some of the smartest investors, if they realize that they're gonna bump into the same people again, make it a win win. Don't just take because you saw that opportunity. Because if you do bump into that person again and now it's awkward because you took five million from them or fifteen million or that building or whatever that thing was, because I mean

I human nature is human nature and s there are some people that if you wrong them, they'll use their last nickel to get your last dime. So

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (59:33.355)
Yeah.

It's it's clean clean living is worth it. Yeah. I spent a lot, as you know, a lot of time in New York City and I knew not everyone, but almost every huge real estate person in New York City. And there were some that would say, You talk to them and say a hundred percent, and you knew they didn't mean it. Right?

Angelina Carleton (59:40.243)
you sleep better at night. Yeah.

Angelina Carleton (01:00:00.895)
And they would say a hundred percent like that they gave you a hundred percent or they

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:00:04.681)
No, that they meant what they said that you they would do whatever they said and the you the words they often use that was a tell is they'd say a hundred percent, which meant it was not true, right? It was a tell, right? not the only tell, obviously. And then there are others that wouldn't screw you if it was the last nickel in their pocket. They just wouldn't. just not the way they were made.

Angelina Carleton (01:00:06.855)
Angelina Carleton (01:00:14.077)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Angelina Carleton (01:00:27.465)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:00:34.625)
And then everybody in between.

Angelina Carleton (01:00:35.859)
Yeah. Well, I think to have been that you've been entrusted and you've built this trusted network of peer to peer, then obviously tell something about your values. And I think last time I may have asked you about your values.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:00:51.673)
I just it all comes down to loving kindness. It's really simple. You just go from there. Yeah. I think it's really simple.

Angelina Carleton (01:00:54.494)
Yeah.

Angelina Carleton (01:00:59.389)
I there was a a question that I sent you and it had to do with something along the lines of at some point does influence become more valuable in ownership? And I think you just spoke to that, that you had the you had and have this influence that you could go to your network and say, I'd like to raise three million or five million or whatever that number is and that's influence. But you also realize that that influence, even if it outlives you, that it's it's it's not that you own this building or this skyscraper in New York City or a ranch in Utah or wherever.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:01:08.973)
Yeah.

Angelina Carleton (01:01:28.669)
I mean that's ownership but influence it's like I could pick up the phone and that door opened and they trusted me and I didn't necessarily have to give the due diligence pitch for sixty minutes with the PowerPoint presentation.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:01:41.825)
No. It's true. It's true. It works.

Angelina Carleton (01:01:46.345)
So circling back to legacy, then you'll have to be a guest on my podcast in the future. And I think that that you've made some really good decisions by engaging your children, that life threw you a curveball, you probably didn't anticipate getting a divorce, the divorce happened. Then it begs the question of okay, now how do I rebuild and put one foot in front of the other? And I've got a team with me, so how do I bring the team and we can all make good choices and healthy choices and and have us be, you know, very street smart in New York City or wherever they all grew up. And so

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:01:53.301)
I click.

Angelina Carleton (01:02:15.743)
You know, I think that's a part of when you engage in real life, 'cause real life is hard. I go back to the school of hard knocks. But this is how we did it. And I I hope it gets distilled somewhere in as documentation in addition to the conversations, 'cause I'm sure a part of the character that you have and your children have is because you had those conversations that you made at the time.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:02:36.107)
Yeah. I it hasn't been distilled somewhere. I think it has footprints, you know, in places. and the it turns out that my kids are good people, so there's part of it right there, right? They're people you'd want to be around, right? so that's a that's a good thing. Yeah, probably enough. Like I I'm not really wrapped up in the whole

what's my legacy. And so I also happen to think that I've got, you know, three years ago I would have said to you, I have 32 more years left, because that's what that's what the numbers say. I think that's gonna change. I think that's gonna change because of the advances that are being made. And I'm also hyper focused on being diligent about

Angelina Carleton (01:03:15.891)
No.

Mm-hmm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:03:36.907)
what I eat, going to the gym every day, you know, all that kind of stuff that is really important, especially at this age. And it works. Right? It's working. So I think I think

Angelina Carleton (01:03:49.843)
I th yeah. I know last time you shared that you started lifting weight because because your girlfriend lifts weights, if I recall correctly.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:03:57.304)
Well, she's a athletic trainer by profession. And so for twenty years in New York City, even though I was a member of a good gym, you know, I might work out once every month. You know, the workout I got is wal you know, walking to the Danielle to have a cocktail and then going to dinner to Paris match around the corner, you know. and so I wasn't really paying attention to that.

Angelina Carleton (01:04:00.671)
Okay.

Angelina Carleton (01:04:19.337)
Mm-hmm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:04:24.289)
physical activity, even though I walked a lot in New York, which helped. but because of her diligence in getting me to go to the gym every day, it's been huge. You know, I just went on a four and a half hour hike at nine thousand feet in the mountains over the weekend with with, you know, seventy percent of the air that's normally available in the you know, because of the altitude.

Angelina Carleton (01:04:27.166)
Mm-hmm.

Angelina Carleton (01:04:37.138)
Mm-hmm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:04:54.133)
And it was peace cake, right?

Angelina Carleton (01:04:55.433)
Good. Good. You look happy and healthy. Yeah. So so I I'm gonna circle it back to legacy for a moment. So I know sometimes people think of legacy in terms of ego because I got that speech from my dad. And I also think when you speak about this idea of living longer and there's articles written now about longevity and and people living longer, etc. I think it's it's the legacy might also be, you know, what are you going to do with your time now and how are you gonna deploy your

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:04:58.805)
I'm super happy. Like I'm so grateful every day. Yeah.

Angelina Carleton (01:05:24.989)
resources, if at all, because now you're getting more selective. You're gonna choose to go for that hike. You're not required to go to that gym in New York City three times a a week or four times. You choose. And so it's like now what are you choosing? You know, you can convince your network to invest three million in something or not. And it's it's how are you making choices now that you're older and wiser and and a part of it is, you know, when you're young you throw all that paint against a wall because you want something to work. But then when you get older you're like, I don't know if I'm gonna

choose to to make that much effort. My choices are gonna become more selective, more intentional.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:06:02.647)
That is absolutely true. And that's been going on for me in an intentional way of being intentional about who I spend my time with, who I talk to, what I do with the limited amount of time presumably I would have left, but everybody has their same hours in the day. I don't do anything that somebody else can do. I try not to do anything that somebody else can do.

Angelina Carleton (01:06:16.415)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:06:29.535)
And I'd rather just sit and read a book in my backyard than most anything else. And but I'm still lit up in juiced by you know the two trades that I did because of the people I've known 15 years that printed money for five people. We all made a lot of money. Like I'm still excited about that, right?

Angelina Carleton (01:06:48.659)
Mm-hmm.

I'm sure the wheels are still turning. Yeah, yeah. So I think the good news is like with your children, you're not hurting cats because they've got a good foundation. I think for some families, particularly if two-thirds of today's affluent are self-made, they may not have prepared well enough because they didn't know how to prepare. And and I don't think preparation necessarily has to do with money. Like there's a difference between money and class. I think that your father was

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:06:54.281)
no doubt. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Angelina Carleton (01:07:20.009)
probably incredibly hard working and so still gave you a foundation regarding a work ethic and respect and values, et cetera. so, but I think with some families out there, like if they have to deal with crazy, then it is like hurting cats. I mean your life when you're like, and I chose to read a book, that's like that's like peace. You've got peace. Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:07:41.752)
Yeah, totally. Yeah. I think that what you are doing is when you saw that back then there was a gap, there was something that said to you that I need to fill this gap. And you actually went as far as to saying, wait a minute, I'm probably not prepared to be the person to fill that gap until I learn more about it, which you did. And so now you're they're credentialed on some level

Angelina Carleton (01:08:02.152)
Mm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:08:11.519)
in a professional way to do that and then you're executing on it. So good for you. Mike. And I think there's also a huge need for it.

Angelina Carleton (01:08:20.169)
Yeah. Yeah, although once you step into the arena, people don't necessarily care about the credentials. It's can you solve my problem?

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:08:21.079)
No doubt.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:08:30.017)
Yeah, but when they see you on the YouTube channel and your podcast and then they look at your background, they go, Okay

Angelina Carleton (01:08:38.824)
I've been through the School of Hard Knocks. Yeah. Yeah. And I think

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:08:42.773)
Listen, I I get criticized not criticized, but there was a time in my life I'm a college dropout. Like I I dropped out of college, start a business, like a lot of other people did. And so nobody gives a shit anymore. But but I'm also not applying for a job anywhere either. And I have not had one, right? So

Angelina Carleton (01:08:49.214)
Mm-hmm.

Angelina Carleton (01:08:54.473)
That's correct. That's correct. It's what are you

Yeah.

Angelina Carleton (01:09:02.877)
Yeah. I wanna leave you with one thought before we close about narcissists. Yeah, sometimes when they become confused later on in life, that's a good thing because the the stuff is when I call the stuff, it's like the furniture in their head is moving around and if they start to feel confused then they're questioning their beliefs of is that still true? Do I still have to be motivated by shame or fear? do I still have to exert as much control?

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:09:07.895)
Please.

Angelina Carleton (01:09:31.657)
Can I let my guard down and let other people in? Sometimes people think if somebody's confused it's a bad thing, but sometimes it's that their programming is wearing away. And when I say programming, it might have been whatever it was that influenced them, you know, before age 18. And now that they're getting older, that's starting to wear away and they can start to question things. And that's always a positive sign. And that means that progress is being made inside of their head. Now whether or not they tell the people around them is another story.

But if they say something along the lines of like, well, I'm not sure if that's true, or I've got a conflicting thought about that now, that means that they are growing and there is a little bit of hope.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:10:02.635)
Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:10:13.291)
I like that. I I will give you the extreme part of that, if you don't mind. So my mother was passive aggressive, like terrible person in the for the most part. she didn't really mean to be, but she had no she didn't have a a pattern that wasn't other than that, because her parents were like that. And so as she got older and she slipped into dementia like a lot of people do.

Angelina Carleton (01:10:17.609)
Please, please.

Angelina Carleton (01:10:41.886)
Mm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:10:42.985)
She didn't have the the brain power or whatever the will to execute on her narcissism anymore. So she was never happier during that time that she had dementia. And nobody and everybody else around her was never happier. She couldn't she couldn't execute.

Angelina Carleton (01:10:51.025)
Mm.

Angelina Carleton (01:10:57.983)
Mm-hmm.

Angelina Carleton (01:11:02.66)
I bet, I bet. Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:11:08.575)
And you know, my siblings all recognize this and if we laugh about it now, but you know, it's kind not exactly what you said, but she didn't cognitively come to the realization that maybe some of the stuff wasn't true that she believed. It's her cognition weakened. So she couldn't execute it on you anymore. It was funny to see it happen. She liked she was the happiest she ever was in her life. Yeah.

Angelina Carleton (01:11:28.659)
Yeah.

I think that's wonderful. I think sometimes people that have to control everyone else, I've seen many times that what ends up happening is towards the end of their life they can't even control their own mind. It's like I don't know if it's karma, I don't know what it is. But yeah. I I I will say this for women, but also for males, but women especially don't give themselves what they need. And what I mean by what they need, and maybe your girlfriend has talked about this, but she probably gives herself what she needs if she's a personal trainer, it's enough sleep.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:11:45.867)
Yeah, it could be compliments. Yeah.

Angelina Carleton (01:12:01.221)
It's setting aside thirty or sixty minutes a day to just exercise, to like gift yourself versus emptying the cup so much that you end up being the B I T C H. 'Cause you've given so much away that you get to this point of like you just break.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:12:17.709)
It's overwhelming, yeah. Fortunately, Mary's been super disciplined all her life. She was a Brooklyn girl, worked three jobs, took the train two and a half hours to school, you know, meal prepped every day because she had no family life to speak of. And she just, you know, was president of her class in school, went to one of the best new schools in Brooklyn. So she's hyper disciplined and methodical, which I'm the

I'm I'm disciplined by proxy b on that type of stuff, you know, going to the gym and all that. But I'm like otherwise I'm like bouncing from one thing to another, right? So well, you've been very kind to let me talk about me and it's all your fault. So there. Yeah. Yeah. I don't

Angelina Carleton (01:13:03.871)
It's my pleasure. I think that's what makes it real. If not I'm really reading from the teleprompter of my notebook.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:13:13.559)
You've been awesome. I want to do this again in a in a couple of months, if that's okay.

Angelina Carleton (01:13:17.107)
I'd be happy to and you'll have to come on to my show one one day when you're ready. Okay. Okay.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:13:21.761)
What I'm ready. You just tell me what what do I unless you tell me I'm not ready, you just if if you think I'm gonna send you a list of questions, I'm not.

Angelina Carleton (01:13:29.255)
No, but I but I will probably send a list of questions your way just so it doesn't feel like a deposition. I always want it to be a fun experience. And things can come up sometimes. I d I want people to not think of their legacy as death and taxes. And most of the time people say, my legacy. You mean my will, right? And I'm like, There's more it's like one day when my parents pass, will I think about the will? No, I'll think about, you know, the the

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:13:46.954)
Yeah, right.

Angelina Carleton (01:13:56.051)
favorite foods that they had, their life journeys, the the things that they always would tell me about. Like my dad would say, like, there's a difference between love and control. Like those little sayings that kind of stick with you. Or the fact that I had to clean my room every Saturday morning before I received my allowance. And to this day every Saturday morning I clean. So I mean it's it's those little things that and and also the stories. and and knowing their background, like you had said about

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:14:15.81)
Yeah, good.

Angelina Carleton (01:14:23.507)
you know, knowing your family's background. I think some of it if you can go back it it's great. If you can, it wonderful. If you can't, it's still you've got your own journey. Like if I mention again that two thirds of today's affluent or self made. You know, kudos for being the pioneer. Kudos for outgrowing your parents. 'Cause there may have been a point where where you said, I only thought I'd make forty thousand a year and then you made four hundred thousand or four million or forty million or or whatever it was and

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:14:52.673)
Yeah, no, totally. Yeah, in my case, they didn't for the for it didn't take long for them to not come have any idea what I was doing. And there was no point in even talking about it, right? But it's okay. Yeah. Angelina. Yeah, please. Angelina, thanks for doing this. Really appreciate it. And thanks everybody for being here and joining us. And till next time. Thank you.

Angelina Carleton (01:15:06.835)
Cool. Okay. Well we'll we'll schedule something. Yeah.